#1 Piston Fighter was British

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 8:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 30 Jun 2003 17:53:46 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

There were two constants on every mission. One was the 180mph cruise.

How would you know? Did you handle the throttles and observe the ASI
all the time? Did you calibrate the ASI youself? Did you experience
cleaning and replacing the pitot head personally or did you pick that
up third-hand?

The
second was the 4,000 pound bomb load.

Did you measure the weight yourself to confirm this, or were you
relying on other people to weigh & load the bombload?

I can still feel that 100 octane eating into my skin.

How did you know it was 100 octane and not 100/115 or 130/150 or 87
octane with the wrong dye? Does 100 octane provide a specific and
unique dermatological irritation which you recognised? In which case,
were you a qualified dermatologist to make that diagnosis in the first
place?

Gavin Bailey


I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.. I calculated all ETA's on
180mph indicated converted to groundspeed to get ETA's. We calibrated our
airspeed indicators based on measured speed runs during shakedowns and
calibrated errors accordingly. I had a full set of instruments in front of me
at all times and watched them carefully. We had to hold airspeed to zero
tolerence to get bombing accuracy. We carried 8 500 pound bombs which I was
responsible for inspecting the loading, checking the arming wires for security
and making sure all the A=2 bomb shackles were properly installed.God, I never
dreamt you knew so little.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 01 Jul 2003 16:11:57 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile. Did you make your own maps,
or did others do that for you? Did you make your B-26 by hand in your
own garage, or did others do that for you? Who taught you to navigate
or use the Norden, or did you invent mathematics, geometry,
cartography and precision bombsight engineering yourself?

In short, where does the tyranny of your own experience end, and other
people begin?

We carried 8 500 pound bombs which I was
responsible for inspecting the loading, checking the arming wires for security
and making sure all the A=2 bomb shackles were properly installed.

So you didn't weigh them, you just took it on trust that they weighed
500lbs?

God, I never dreamt you knew so little.

You have no problems dismissing or demeaning literally millions of
people. I'm happy enough to be in their company. I'm still going to
thank you for what you did.

Gavin Bailey


--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wrote:

On 01 Jul 2003 16:11:57 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile. Did you make your own maps,
or did others do that for you? Did you make your B-26 by hand in your
own garage, or did others do that for you? Who taught you to navigate
or use the Norden, or did you invent mathematics, geometry,
cartography and precision bombsight engineering yourself?

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

I think all will agree there is a place for history and a place for
personal experience. We can probably all agree reading something and
personally experiencing something are not equivalent.

We can probably all agree that being told our knowledge is inadequate
because it was not obtained by personal experience, or that your personal
experience is "wrong" or not general, based on someone's readings, can be
annoying in the extreme.

Leave it at that and move on. No killfiling required from anyone!


SMH

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:31:15 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

Thanks for your opinion. I note that you didn't make the point,
asinine or not.

I think all will agree there is a place for history and a place for
personal experience. We can probably all agree reading something and
personally experiencing something are not equivalent.

Of course not. I'd never suggested that, although I get the suspicion
that's what Art thinks I believe. It also appears to be an approach
he has erroneously attributed to several other posters on this group,
at least two of which have posted in this thread. If the tone of the
posts annoys you or you find them "asinine", I suggest you take it up
with the poster responsible for initiating the exchange at that level.
I'm happy enough to discuss things on a rational level, and I
genuinely respect Kramer's experience and contribution, but that
appears insufficient to maintain a rational and respectful level of
exchange on his part.

Fine by me, if that's how he prefers it.

We can probably all agree that being told our knowledge is inadequate
because it was not obtained by personal experience, or that your personal
experience is "wrong" or not general, based on someone's readings, can be
annoying in the extreme.

I'd like to know where I've ever done this to anybody, let alone Art
Kramer in particular.

Leave it at that and move on. No killfiling required from anyone!

This isn't the first instance of Art provoking such a reaction, and
your selectivity in responding is notable.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:31:15 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

Thanks for your opinion. I note that you didn't make the point,
asinine or not.

???
Never mind.

[snip]

I'm happy enough to discuss things on a rational level, and I

Well your little "did you weigh the bomb load" "discussion" is not really
rational and becoming tedious in its repetition. No need kicking a dead
horse.

This isn't the first instance of Art provoking such a reaction, and
your selectivity in responding is notable.

Well I don't agree with Art's statements that only personal experience is
worth anything in comparison to learned experience. We'd never really
know anything if that were true.

But I will admit I'm a fan of Art's and have just come to accept that he
has very strong opinions about things that aren't going to be easily changed,
and so be it. No point getting flustered about it.

Consider yourself fortunate you are not French!


SMH

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:24:14 GMT, (The
Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile.

I don't know about Art, but as of today you're in mine.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:11:40 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile.

I don't know about Art, but as of today you're in mine.

I'm somehow reminded of your exchanges with Eric Schilling at this
point. Perhaps your tolerance of being unreasonably dismissed by
veterans is higher than mine. I still read his contributions and
yours (and even bought your book as a consequence).

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

ArtKramr wrote: (among other stuff)

We had to hold airspeed to zero tolerence to get bombing accuracy.

Arthur Kramer


"zero tolerance" Now I'm really impressed!

Dave

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Cub Driver
Date: 7/1/03 1:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: h7r3gvo39q07n9klatqtrpfer69sp

about the
carnage at Omaha, and he'd melded it into his own memory. That's the
problem with eyewitness testimony--it sometimes is actually a memory
of a photograph you've seen or a thought you later had.

How does that effect books written from memory that everyone is now quoting.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: av8r
Date: 7/1/03 2:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Hi ya Art!

The 344th BG was the first group to attack Utah Beach. They bombed a
number of German coastal artillery sites. The next group over Utah
Beach was the 387th BG. Due to cloud cover, all bombing was carried out
below the cloud base. As I indicated in my previous e-mail, the cloud
base ranged from 1,650 ASL to 3,000 feet ASL. The 366th BG was the last
to drop its ordnance, just a mere five minutes before the initial
landings took place. They carpet bombed the area using 100 pound bombs
that tore up the barbed wire and explode buried land mines, both
anti-tank and anti-personnel. A beneficial side effect was that bombs
created instant fox holes. They were deep enough for the assaulting
ground forces to use yet not deep enough to hinder either the armored
nor landing vehicles.

Cheers...Chris


You said the magic words that make my blood run cold...100 pounders. (sheesh)We
carried 40 hundred pounders. 40 of the little *******s. Do you know how long
it takes to kick out 40 bombs by intervalometer flying straight and level with
your bomb bay doors open , low enough to take small arms fire?. A lifetime,
that's how long. Talk about time standing still. We used that same damned load
hitting the marshalling yards at Cologne, coming home full of small arms fire;
holes and dents. But those little *******s sure made short work of barbed wire
and railroad tracks and ties.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer