Anyone dissapointed with Oshgosh?

I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
show their product.
If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
show us what they have to offer? I was told by my EAA adviser, that
all I would have to do is finish the plane and show up and I would win
every award given to the wooden builder. Now I know why.
Very Disappointed
Lou

On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:

I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
show their product.
If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
show us what they have to offer?

Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot is,
but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
etc.

Kit-wise, the vast majority of the wood designs are small Mini-Max class
airplanes. Not much profit on each of them. Wood kits are getting rarer;
people want a lot of prefabbed parts, and that means a lot of expensive
hand-work for a wood kit.

There still are a number of wood plans-built designs out there, but how
many sets of $65 Fly Baby plans do you have to sell to be able to afford a
booth at Oshkosh?

It's just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn't affordable for the purveyors of
the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started. The Broadhead
Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it's
located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is. Yet you'll see dozens of Piets
at Broadhead, compared to a couple at Airventure.

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:

I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
show their product.
If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
show us what they have to offer?

Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot is,
but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
etc.

I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities
that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That's all.
And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the
bus... Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon
this year - amazing what a little competition will do.

So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
greedy commercial enterprise?

-- Jim

It's just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn't affordable for the purveyors of
the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started. The Broadhead
Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it's
located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is

This sounds more like what I want from a homebuilder flyin. Maybe if they
don't mind some "outsiders" this little get together could be promoted to
others building planes from plans or very basic kits. I don't see anything
wrong with some Piets and Tailwinds in the same gathering and maybe the Piet
owners wouldn't mind a little diversity.

I have no need of, or desire to put up with, all of the non aviatiion comercial
BS that has infested Oshkosh and don't plan to return until the ballance shifts
back to the HOMEBUILDER.

This year was my best Oshkosh experience in a long time. I stayed at home,
took the time and money I would normally have spent in Wisconsin, and worked on
my plane. Got a LOT done. All my brother got was rained on......

I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
others about their planes but there were none to be found.

Well... the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood)
GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin. In the ultralight area, they were working
on the wood wings of something or other, and there were a number of all
wood planes there. There was a workshop devoted to woodworking, I
believe. I saw at least two Falcos, one of them Reserve Grand Champion
from two or three years ago, and there were lots of planes that had wood
wings to go with their steel tube fuselages in the aerobatics area. Not
to mention the antiques that had wood wings.

Ed Wischmeyer

In article , Ed Wischmeyer
writes:


I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it?

So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
greedy commercial enterprise?

First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.

Where did your money go? Some of it goes to keep the dues down and to
run an organization that can, on the same day, attract and impress the
Secretary of Transportation, the Administrator of the FAA, and the Chair
of the NTSB, not to mention a couple of senators and representatives --
and to help protect your freedoms to fly by working with the regulators,
not just the Congress. Then there's the free airshow, free workshops
(which include free material to practice on), the free forums, the free
portapotties, the free onsite health care, free delivery from town of
prescription medicines, and the most comprehensive set of exhibitors to
visit with, plus the work during the rest of the year to get Sport
Pilot through so lots more people can fly, the work on making aviation
gasoline available after tetraethyl lead goes away because of economic
issues. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year
(it's rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there
are expenses that cannot be amortized year around.

Other folks have compared prices to "comparable" events with results
favorable to the EAA.

Best advice? Get plugged in, get a volunteer job. It's lots more fun
that way.

Ed Wischmeyer, volunteer for 9 years

Well Said Ed.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Food prices are way out of line too.

Ha ha! I just went to a state fair that smelled worse than OSH and a funnel
cake's five dollars, onion rings $4. Bitching about Fair Food is like grousing
about these young kids and their rock music. Just marks ya as an old crank.
Pack a sandwich.

Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.

Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth. The
ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want all
that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.

Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.

Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the main
attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not plug
the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the better.

As for http://www.sportaviation.org/ :

He couldn't keep control of one organization and keep it on track (if that was
ever the intent) so what is there to make me think this group isn't headed down
the same track?

The only true homebuilt oriented flyins any more seem to be the little "type"
fly-ins. I'd love to look at Piets, T-18, Kr's, old Aeroncas, Swifts, ....the
list goes on. Oshkosh WAS the place to go to see all of that but now if you
want to actually talk to the owner and look under the cowl you have to fly to a
few dozen type events to do the same thing. With the "Airventure" trying to be
all things to all people it's original usefullness has been lost. When I first
went it was rare to see a plane roped off so you couldn't walk up and look
inside or crawl under the wing to look at some datail. But then we didn't have
the hoards of uneducated people ripping the planes apart due to ignorance.

If you think the "Airventure" is so great the way it is, that's fine with me.
But I either feel kind of sorry for you that you missed the "good 'ol days", or
wounder why you didn't really appreciate what we had and don't want to share
the good times with others again.

As for the cop-out catch all - "but it brings new people into, and promote,
general aviation". That IMHO opinion is NOT the job of the annual EAA fly in.
That job is yours and mine, every day of the year.

"BD5ER" wrote in message
...
Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.

Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth.
The
ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want
all
that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.

Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.

Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the
main
attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not
plug
the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the
better.

Because osh is so big, you can make anything out of it that you want to. If
the homebuilts are your thing, only look at the houmebuilt related things.
I'll still bet you could spend at least 3 days there, and not see all there
is to see. If warbirds are your thing, only look at the warbirds,,, and so
on.

Bottom line- go if you want, don't if you don't want - but....
Quit yer bitchin!!! You aren't going to change what is!

Think the serenity prayer.
--
Jim in NC--

In article , cal
(BD5ER) writes:

Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.

Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth. The
ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want all
that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.


A lot of things have changed over the last 20 years and AirVenture is no
exception. I have attended for the last 5 years and yes, the flymart has a lot
of non-aviation related vendors. So what, I don't go to Oshkosh for the
flymart to begin with and make one quick pass to look at odds and ends of tools
and hardware. Aside from that, I don't care whats there and can't understand
why you do either. On the other hand, most of those non-aviation businesses
were making sales to someone or they wouldn't be there.

Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.

Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the main
attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not plug
the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the
better.


Then its your loss because obviously you are not looking in the right places.
There is plenty at Oshkosh for everyone who attends if they are willing.

As for http://www.sportaviation.org/ :

He couldn't keep control of one organization and keep it on track (if that
was
ever the intent) so what is there to make me think this group isn't headed
down
the same track?


It is a free world, you should start your own organization and show us how it
should be done. If you are not willing to do that where do you come off being
critical of those who are trying?

The only true homebuilt oriented flyins any more seem to be the little "type"
fly-ins. I'd love to look at Piets, T-18, Kr's, old Aeroncas, Swifts,
....the list goes on. Oshkosh WAS the place to go to see all of that but now
if you
want to actually talk to the owner and look under the cowl you have to fly to
a
few dozen type events to do the same thing. With the "Airventure" trying to
be
all things to all people it's original usefullness has been lost. When I
first
went it was rare to see a plane roped off so you couldn't walk up and look
inside or crawl under the wing to look at some datail. But then we didn't
have
the hoards of uneducated people ripping the planes apart due to ignorance.


I have attended a number of smaller regional flyins over the years and I
enjoyed them very much. They did not however give me anywhere near the
opportunities to see the variety of aircraft and talk with half as many
builders. They also didn't even begin to provide the educational forums that
are available at Oshkosh.

If you think the "Airventure" is so great the way it is, that's fine with me.

But I either feel kind of sorry for you that you missed the "good 'ol days",
or
wounder why you didn't really appreciate what we had and don't want to share
the good times with others again.


I feel sorry for you. You are either unable or unwilling to look beyond the
superficial aspects of AirVenture and look for those items which you are
interested in. AirVenture is what those who attend make it.

As for the cop-out catch all - "but it brings new people into, and promote,
general aviation". That IMHO opinion is NOT the job of the annual EAA fly
in.
That job is yours and mine, every day of the year.



Yes, it is yours and mine but it is also the EAA's and every organization that
is in aviation. Now, either deal with the change or isolate yourself in the
past.



Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)