China to buy Eurofighters?

John Cook wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:18:35 -0600, Alan Minyard
wrote:

Actually, the eurofighter is already at least two generations behind the
F-22/F-35. By the time the Chinese get one it will be 3-4 generations
behind.


Hmmm... Typhoon at least two generations behind the F-22 and
F-35???????, Ok I'll bite.

Al is right on this one. It will take 2 generations until the F22
becomes operational. If they don't throw the entire project into the
recycle bin, that is.

In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:38:06 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

And that's assuming that the EU holds together, and that's looking less
and less probable as time goes by.

No country has ever wanted to leave the EU, and many want to join.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea. In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

I had a nice long post, addressing each of your points in turn, but this
is the real crux of it.

You support the EU in all of these ways, but you don't even understand
that the people *in* the EU don't even like it...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Chad Irby wrote:
In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:


On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:38:06 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:


And that's assuming that the EU holds together, and that's looking less
and less probable as time goes by.

No country has ever wanted to leave the EU, and many want to join.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html



Sorry, the page you have requested is not available

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Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea. In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

Cite, please.

I had a nice long post, addressing each of your points in turn, but this
is the real crux of it.

You support the EU in all of these ways, but you don't even understand
that the people *in* the EU don't even like it...


Whereas you don't understand, full stop.

John

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:38:06 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

And that's assuming that the EU holds together, and that's looking less
and less probable as time goes by.

No country has ever wanted to leave the EU, and many want to join.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea. In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

I had a nice long post, addressing each of your points in turn, but this
is the real crux of it.

You support the EU in all of these ways, but you don't even understand
that the people *in* the EU don't even like it...


Hmm

I am no Europhile but it has to be said that any precis of a 264 page
document that
is as short as this one is has to be regarded as suspect.

Having read the document (version 59) I am confirmed in that view

While its true that only 30% of the UK population said
membership was a good thing only 25% said it was
a bad thing

The percentages saying it was bad for other countries were

Holland 5%
Ireland 5%
Belgium 7%
Spain 6%
Greece 8%
Germany 8%
France 12%
Denmark 17%

So a bald statement that a majority of EU citizens think
membership is a bad idea is simply a misrepresentation.

When people were asked if they thought their country
had benefitted from EU membership 2/3 of those
polled said they thought it had.

The worst case poll was in the UK where 44% said the UK
had not benefitted and 34% said thet thought we had

Keith

John Mullen wrote:

Chad Irby wrote:
In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:


On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:38:06 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:


And that's assuming that the EU holds together, and that's looking less
and less probable as time goes by.

No country has ever wanted to leave the EU, and many want to join.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html


Sorry, the page you have requested is not available

This error message may occur for a number of reasons:

Works for me, right out of my post.

Maybe you should try again, more carefully.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
John Mullen wrote:

Chad Irby wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Note: worked fine first time, and the three times I've tried it since,
directly out of my post.

Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea. In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

Cite, please.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Still works for me. Maybe you should try again.

If you still have trouble, that's your problem.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

I am no Europhile but it has to be said that any precis of a 264 page
document that is as short as this one is has to be regarded as
suspect.

Having read the document (version 59) I am confirmed in that view

While its true that only 30% of the UK population said
membership was a good thing only 25% said it was
a bad thing

....with a range of people in between.

If you can't get more than half of your people to agree that it's
"good," that doesn't say much for it, does it?

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:



While its true that only 30% of the UK population said
membership was a good thing only 25% said it was
a bad thing

...with a range of people in between.


Saying it was neither good nor bad, reality is a
large number of people have no string feelings
one way or the other.

If you can't get more than half of your people to agree that it's
"good," that doesn't say much for it, does it?


And if only 25% thinks its bad it most be wonderful.

Thats why opinion polls are so beloved of politicians
they can make them prove anything they like.

Keith

Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
John Mullen wrote:

Chad Irby wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Note: worked fine first time, and the three times I've tried it since,
directly out of my post.

Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea. In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

Cite, please.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/09/weu09.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Still works for me. Maybe you should try again.

If you still have trouble, that's your problem.

You may have to 'reconstruct' it (some browsers break it into two
lines)

-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:16:31 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
In article ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 00:38:06 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

And that's assuming that the EU holds together, and that's looking less
and less probable as time goes by.

No country has ever wanted to leave the EU, and many want to join.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...12/09/weu09.xm
l&sSheet=/news/2003/12/09/ixworld.html

Currently, more than *half* of the population of the EU think joining
the EU was a bad idea.

Where does it say that? I can't see anywhere, either in the
Telegraph report, or the Eurobarometer poll itself. I think you are
misunderstanding the poll. (Note also the Telegraph has an axe to
grind: it tries at every opportunity to show the EU in as bad light
as possible. Note that in this article it doesn't give full
figures).

In the Telegraph, it says 48% think their country's membership is a
good thing; it doesn't say how many think it is a bad thing. The
latest EB poll, which the Telegraph refers to, isn't published yet,
so I can't comment on it. However the previous one (EB59) is
published. In this one:

54% think the EU is a good thing
11% bad thing
27% neither good nor bad

The remaining 8% presumably don't know or wouldn't say.

So we have 54% good v. 11% bad.

In the latest poll, it's probably something like 48% good v. 14%
bad.


In England, only about 1/3 of the population
want to be in the EU right now.

Yes, and probably only 1/3 want to be out.

I had a nice long post, addressing each of your points in turn, but this
is the real crux of it.

You support the EU in all of these ways, but you don't even understand
that the people *in* the EU don't even like it...

Only if you could read minds -- which you can't -- would you know
what I believe. I'm perfectly well aware that enthusiasm for the EU
is rare in Britain. There have been many polls over the last 20
years showing low active support, and a few that have shown a
majority in favour of leaving. However the british have never, when
it has come down to it, actually decided to leave the EU.

Why not? it's not because they've never have opportunities to elect
parties who wanted to leave. It's just that in practise most Britons
think membership of the EU is essential and inevitable, that
although they groan about it, deep down they don't really want to
leave, which is why whenever major UK parties have advocated
leaving, for example Labour in 1983 or Tories in 2001, they've been
badly defeated at the polls.


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).