GW Bu$h's Torture Chambers and Rape rooms ...!

Peter H Proctor wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis"
wrote:

"Fred the Red Shirt"

In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.

Not by accepted definitions of torture.

Physical torture doesn't give reliable information anyway.
People will tell you anything to stop the pain.

However, psychological techniques do work very well, though
slower.

You make a good argument. But can you show evidence to support it?

Before you throw up your hands in horror, what if you
reasonably believe that you can save many lives by this process,
which does no physical harm?


If so, you have a criminal attitude.

--

FF

"Yardpilot" wrote in message news:LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:
Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

Then you haven't actually looked.


Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.

You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
available.

Prove it.

--

FF

On 3 May 2004 15:25:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Peter H Proctor

Physical torture doesn't give reliable information anyway.
People will tell you anything to stop the pain.

However, psychological techniques do work very well, though
slower.

You make a good argument. But can you show evidence to support it?

"General knowledge", admissible in court--- This is what is generally
taught in upper level psych classes.

Before you throw up your hands in horror, what if you
reasonably believe that you can save many lives by this process,
which does no physical harm?

If so, you have a criminal attitude.

What if, e.g., "psychological techniques" could have stopped
the 9/11 attack ? I know what I would have done.

While everybody likes to cite them, international accords
about the treatment of prisoners only cover belligerents in uniform.
With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
less than this....

PHP

http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/gen...nvention3.html

Geneva conventions

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention,
are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have
fallen into the power of the enemy:........

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps,
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a
Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory,
even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil
the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person
responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed
distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms
openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the
laws and customs of war.

On 3 May 2004 13:56:22 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

The UN, apparently, for another.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

PART I

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
incidental to lawful sanctions.

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?


...
Unless you an show
where they have filed a protest.


You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.

However:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/hurica...5?opendocument

As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
The Committee had an obligation to address this
problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
second periodic report of the United States to
the Committee was a year and a half overdue.

http://www.salon.com/people/intervie...mary_robinson/

Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
the extension of her term.

See also:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument

Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.

YOU HAVE NO POINT.

My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
way of life.

AH#49 wrote:
Ken Smith wrote:
AH#49 wrote:
Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:

In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
news:ef427f7c.0405021054.320f357f@posting. google.com...


"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52. ..


"Pooched" wrote in message

[snip]


Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
certainly didn't exist.

"Almost Certainly"!
Even I've got to giggle at that!

Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
possible than others.

Well, the "legend" most certainly DOES exist, doesn't it?

The legend remains, even if it were built from der Luft.

Otherwise, please explain all those Hundreds of millions that visit
those buildings with Crosses on them every day...'specially on Sunday!

Me?
I have no doubt that a man called Jesus Christ existed way back then.

I don't seriously doubt that there was a man named Yeshua (a common
Jewish name, translated today as Joshua) whom some called messiah (which
is a rough translation of the Greek), having been called a messiah by a
Jew before. :P

On 3 May 2004 13:56:22 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

The UN, apparently, for another.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

PART I

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
incidental to lawful sanctions.

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?


...
Unless you an show
where they have filed a protest.


You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.

However:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/hurica...5?opendocument

As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
The Committee had an obligation to address this
problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
second periodic report of the United States to
the Committee was a year and a half overdue.

http://www.salon.com/people/intervie...mary_robinson/

Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
the extension of her term.

See also:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument

Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.

YOU HAVE NO POINT.

My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
way of life.

Peter H Proctor addresses a different issue, that
of the status of the detainees ate Guantanamo Bay
. ..
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/gen...nvention3.html

Geneva conventions

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention,
are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have
fallen into the power of the enemy:........

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps,
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a
Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory,
even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil
the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person
responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed
distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms
openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the
laws and customs of war.


There are several other categories of POWs but the paragraph you
cite above does seem to be the most relevent to the AL Queda
fighters captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan. It would
appear that they qualify as POWs. The only sitcking point might
be the part about 'having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable
at a distance;' but given that our troops in camos do not, we
had better not push that point too hard.

Regardless, both the Geneva Conventions and the USCMJ require
that a battlefield captive be accorded POW status unless it
is determined the he or she does not, said determination to
be made by a competent court or tribunal. That determinination
must also be made on a case by case basis for each individual.

In any event, and this is a mjor point Mr *MORT* has missed,
torture is wrong.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:
Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

Then you haven't actually looked.


Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.

You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
available.

Prove it.

Wrong order, "Fred." The claim was first made that the information was
unavailible. Prove that then I'll take a minute to prove you are wrong and
worse. Grow some balls, "Fred."

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:


"Pooched" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can
get
away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?


I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:

http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_co...=1111_0_10_0_C

Doesn't support your claim.


That's a damn lie.

No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about supports
the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to other
countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l

"You Know Who" wrote in message
s.com...
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:


"You Know Who" wrote in message
ws.com...
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:


"You Know Who" wrote in message
ws.com...
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:


"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
. com...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"

wrote:

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think
they
can
get
away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would
you
mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

It's a matter of faith.

Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

Why, sure. If faith causes belief, then surely it can cause disbelief.

So what is your faith that He never existed based on?

Faith. Perhaps you are missing something. If you choose to believe, then sooner
or later it comes down to faith. What's the difference? It would be more
incumbent on you to prove existence than on me to prove nonexistence. I don't
believe phlogiston exists, but I see no need to prove it doesn't. Provided proof
it did, I might choose to accept such a fact.

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
You Know Who wrote in message
ws.com...

What makes you think He was mythical?

It's a matter of faith.

Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
one to believe he was not.

Careful "Fred." Agreeing with me will hurt your feelings.