FAA: Boeing's New 787 May Be Vulnerable to Hacker Attack

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

george wrote:
On Jan 9, 5:34 am, Mxsmanic wrote:

Sec. 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the
navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air
carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the
determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be
made
by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to
be
used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by
the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

That is the Reg.
Self explanatory

(1) Portable voice recorders;

Is an iPod not a personal voice recorder? Yet all the airlines I've
been
on recently include it in the don't turn on until we say so list.


One of the reasons the FAA don't like Ipods and their ilk is that if you
are zoned out listening to music when an evacuation occurs, you might be
a liability in the event.
Rigth or wrong, it is one of the reasons.

Bertie

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:09:03 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote in
:

george wrote:
On Jan 9, 5:34 am, Mxsmanic wrote:

Sec. 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the
navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air
carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the
determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be
made
by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to
be
used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by
the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

That is the Reg.
Self explanatory

(1) Portable voice recorders;

Is an iPod not a personal voice recorder? Yet all the airlines I've been
on recently include it in the don't turn on until we say so list.

While portable voice recorders fall under Paragraph B, there is a
report of an iPod causing interference in the cockpit:

From: (Don Poitras)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Bizarre radio experience
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:26:27 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID:
...
There's only one thing left to try...
I turn off my iPod that's plugged into the headset (not "Ride of
the Valkyries", but Amy LaVere)... silence. Wow. Cool. Plug back
in, "podunk..."

Somehow the combination of iPod, wire and LightSpeed 30-3G was
acting as a radio (a very crisp, loud radio) picking up multiple
frequencies at once. I wish I had written down all the airport
names so I could see how many I was hearing, but it was quite the
cacophony. I called LightSpeed and the guy there had never had
that reported before.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

george wrote:
On Jan 9, 5:34 am, Mxsmanic wrote:

Sec. 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the
following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the
navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air
carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the
determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be
made
by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to
be
used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by
the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

That is the Reg.
Self explanatory
(1) Portable voice recorders;

Is an iPod not a personal voice recorder? Yet all the airlines I've
been
on recently include it in the don't turn on until we say so list.


One of the reasons the FAA don't like Ipods and their ilk is that if you
are zoned out listening to music when an evacuation occurs, you might be
a liability in the event.
Rigth or wrong, it is one of the reasons.

Bertie



I understand that but what I'm saying is the reg quoted above seems to
me to specifically ALLOW personal voice recorders which is really all an
iPod is.

Larry Dighera wrote:
on recently include it in the don't turn on until we say so list.

While portable voice recorders fall under Paragraph B, there is a
report of an iPod causing interference in the cockpit:

From: (Don Poitras)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Bizarre radio experience
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:26:27 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID:
...
There's only one thing left to try...
I turn off my iPod that's plugged into the headset (not "Ride of
the Valkyries", but Amy LaVere)... silence. Wow. Cool. Plug back
in, "podunk..."

Somehow the combination of iPod, wire and LightSpeed 30-3G was
acting as a radio (a very crisp, loud radio) picking up multiple
frequencies at once. I wish I had written down all the airport
names so I could see how many I was hearing, but it was quite the
cacophony. I called LightSpeed and the guy there had never had
that reported before.



This is hardly at issue. The iPod was wired into the pilots headset.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

george wrote:
On Jan 9, 5:34 am, Mxsmanic wrote:

Sec. 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no
person
may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an
aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on
any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating
certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of
the
aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the
navigation
or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air
carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the
determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be
made
by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is
to be
used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made
by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

That is the Reg.
Self explanatory
(1) Portable voice recorders;

Is an iPod not a personal voice recorder? Yet all the airlines I've
been
on recently include it in the don't turn on until we say so list.


One of the reasons the FAA don't like Ipods and their ilk is that if
you are zoned out listening to music when an evacuation occurs, you
might be a liability in the event.
Rigth or wrong, it is one of the reasons.

Bertie



I understand that but what I'm saying is the reg quoted above seems to
me to specifically ALLOW personal voice recorders which is really all
an iPod is.


Mmm, They have had drives, though. Might make a difference. i don't
know. Phones are definitely a PITA on board and I had a laptop dump an
Omega database on me years ago. Eletricity and radio are something I shy
away from though..


Bertie

george wrote:

On Jan 7, 1:53 pm, Some Other Guy wrote:

So you have hundreds of passenger devices on the network. Due to a bug,
one or many may malfunction and cause a packet storm, either bringing
down the
network or causing unacceptable latency. High latency can cause
autopilot
oscillation and loss of control. Oops.

We are talking about the flight systems of an aircraft with, as I
suspect you're aware, two pilots who are there and are trained for
such an eventuality.

In other words, you think it's okay for an in flight entertainment
system to cause the aircraft flight control systems to misbehave.

This is where you and I disagree, and I have nothing more to say about that.

On Jan 9, 12:19 pm, Some Other Guy wrote:
george wrote:

We are talking about the flight systems of an aircraft with, as I
suspect you're aware, two pilots who are there and are trained for
such an eventuality.

In other words, you think it's okay for an in flight entertainment
system to cause the aircraft flight control systems to misbehave.

No but that won't stop you making the claim.

If such an unlikely event might occur the pilots will go through their
drills.
Computerised systems falling over is not a new thing
That's why the aircrew are there and trained to handle such problems


This is where you and I disagree, and I have nothing more to say about that.

Promises

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:35:49 -0800 (PST), george
wrote in
:


If such an unlikely event might occur the pilots will go through their
drills. Computerised systems falling over is not a new thing
That's why the aircrew are there and trained to handle such problems


In fly-by-wire aircraft there are no truly manual controls, are there?
What if the flight crew found their attempts at control input
ineffective do that a hypothetical hack? Are the interconnected
systems designed to prevent the crew's loss of control to the
automated systems?

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:35:49 -0800 (PST), george
wrote in
:


If such an unlikely event might occur the pilots will go through their
drills. Computerised systems falling over is not a new thing
That's why the aircrew are there and trained to handle such problems


In fly-by-wire aircraft there are no truly manual controls, are there?
What if the flight crew found their attempts at control input
ineffective do that a hypothetical hack? Are the interconnected
systems designed to prevent the crew's loss of control to the
automated systems?




I know.

Tirbe

george writes:

If such an unlikely event might occur the pilots will go through their
drills.

There aren't any drills that would help.

Computerised systems falling over is not a new thing
That's why the aircrew are there and trained to handle such problems

They are not trained to handle such problems. When the aircraft is controlled
by computer and the computer fails, there isn't any training that will make
any difference.