Almost saw someone crash

John Gaquin wrote:

Just how close, exactly, did she come, Doc?

Sounds to me like within about 5 feet.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

"David Megginson" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...

I'm not sure about the British, but the American bombers flying out of the
UK used a box formation -- I think it was three levels high -- and that
requires a fair bit of choreography to set up. In any case, there are
many
gradations of visibility between inside a cloud and severe clear.

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about how he worked as a
statistician for General Curtis LeMay when LeMay was in charge of the
Flying
Fortresses out of the U.K. in 1943. After having too many planes abort
missions because of faulty oxygen systems, engine problems, etc. LeMay
(according to McNamara) declared that the next crew who turned back for
any
reason would be court-martialed. That's a strong disincentive for turning
back just because the visibility is low.


All the best,


David

Pour engourage les autres...

Jay B

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
Why not just report her flying to your local FSDO?
This is exactly the sort of "bad apple" person that gives the rest of us a
bad name. She's not doing any of us any favors with her attitude, and I
don't see why anyone would do her any favors by not turning her in.

It's not neccessarily about doing her a favor. If someone called the FAA
safety hotline, what would happen? Do you think there is enough of a case
for a successful prosecution? I doubt it. All that would likely happen is
that her attitude would become more cavalier because she beat the Feds at
their game.

D.

"Viperdoc" wrote in message

I saw her emerge from the clouds when the weather was below localizer
mins.

.....typically around 500 to 600 feet. I know people who flew for years
without exceeding three digits of altitude. Not inherently dangerous. That
is fact.

By your own description of her arrival, the woman apparently is quite
skilled. Another fact.

She personally stated that she was completely lost, unable to control the
plane,

Now you're ratcheting things up. This is a degree of information not
included in your first post. Lost she may well have been, but clearly able
to control her craft, as you described her arrival.

.......scud running low enough to damage a wing tip
by hitting a tree

You don't know this to be fact. All you know is what someone else told you.
And that persons interpretation was that she first noticed said damage as
she was departing. But, if the damage had not noticably affected flight
characteristics (which apparently it did not), and this woman habitually
operated in the manner you observed, it is entirely possible the damage
occurred on a prior flight and went unnoticed. We simply do not know.


You can draw your own conclusions as to whether her actions were rational
and demonstrated good judgment.

I never once suggested they were either. In fact, my opinion is the
opposite. I used to fly a 402 commuter years ago when you could still get a
Special VFR to get into some pretty scuzzy places without having to fly the
full approach. Having actually done it, I do *not* condone this type of
flying. It shaves your safety margin to a very thin point. But I also
recognize that it is not inherently a near-death experience.

My only point was, and is, that in serious discussions we should stick to
facts, and avoid drama.

"Capt.Doug" wrote in message
...
It's not neccessarily about doing her a favor. If someone called the FAA
safety hotline, what would happen? Do you think there is enough of a case
for a successful prosecution? I doubt it. All that would likely happen is
that her attitude would become more cavalier because she beat the Feds at
their game.

That's baloney. First of all, from the description given, there were plenty
of witnesses to make a case, plus there's going to be a record of the damage
to the plane. Secondly, so what if this particular case isn't the one that
gets her? Unless people are willing to report irresponsible piloting like
that, the FSDO never has a chance to even start building a case.

As for her attitude becoming "more cavalier", I can't imagine how it could
be any more cavalier than it already is. Just how much worse could she
possibly get? She's already nearly killed herself, running the plane into
something in flight. Any more cavalier, and she won't be a problem because
she WILL be dead.

Pete

On Sat, 22 May 2004 08:30:10 -0600, "Newps"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
It may seem odd, but this is how people often react when they have been
badly frightened.

I bet she wasn't frightened. I know two people on my field who are exactly
the same way, always have been.

I guess that's the way I was after totaling my Trans Am. Kid pulled
out and I took the GMC Jimmy broad side. I never was scared. I
didn't have time to be. He came shooting out, I hit the brakes and we
hit. I heard the bang from the airbags and the next thing I knew I
could feel the car spinning. Couldn't see a thing for all the smoke
and dust from the powder in the airbags.

I never was scared nor did I get the shakes afterwards, but man was I
punchy.

As far as the talkativeness, I've always been that way so no one would
know the difference.

When the Deb's engine quit on climbout I went on autopilot. Mine, not
the airplanes. I certainly had a heightened sense of awareness, but I
don't think fear played much of a part.

What I don't understand is why some one would be frustrated seeing
some one else doing something foolish.

Every day I see people not eating right, eating too much, and not
exercising which is probably just as dangerous as scud running and I'm
not condoning either one. I just don't get excited until the dirt and
parts start flying. Then it bothers me more to see some ones else in
a wreck than when it was me. I was busy helping on the scene when
some one happened to ask, "Man, Who was in that car?". I raised my
had and said "here". One paramedic immediately asked me what day is
it? I replied, "How the hell would I know? I'm retired!". He said,
"You're OK".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sat, 22 May 2004 14:37:19 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

It was a very frustrating situation- she had nearly killed herself,
apparently knew why it had happened, and seemed to think this was a normal
activity of flying (let alone damaging her 1997 Bonanza A-36)

Last week, on another aviation forum, a new pilot was happily relating his
first successful cross country flight with his family -- a 500 mile trip
that took him into some complex airspace on the East coast of the U.S.

As I was reading along, filled with the glow of remembering *my* first long
trip, I was astounded to read that he had run a fuel tank dry on final
approach! Almost in passing he casually mentioned that he was forced to
quickly switch to the fullest tank, and the engine re-started. He landed
normally.

I couldn't believe that anyone could treat a complete engine failure on
final with such utter disdain, but this very low-time pilot spoke of it as

Haven't had one *yet* huh? :-))

Been there and done that. Do a lot of traveling and even using check
lists you are likely to forget to switch one of these days.

I did it practicing approaches with an instructor.

We had been flying for several hours and I had switched to the aux
tanks for the trip back from GDW to MBS. We did the ILS, the
published missed and hold, then another ILS. On the missed the engine
quit instantly. No rough running or losing power, it suddenly quit.

It was a reflex action to reach for the tank switch, but over in the
right seat I was hearing, "Left tank Rog! Left tank!", but by the time
he got out the first "left" I had already switched.

It wasn't enough to even raise the adrenalin levels, yet on the way
back to the hold, the instructor said (in his gravely voice and I wish
I could convey the emphasis in writing). "Man.... Was that a rush or
what?"

if this sort of thing were normal and an expected part of flying. It was no
greater part of his story than his description of the FBO's on-field
restaurant.

If all I had to do was reach for the tank switch I wouldn't get
excited. I might berate myself for forgetting to switch, but that
would be it. Now if the other tank was already low that would be a
different story as I'm paranoid about carrying plenty of fuel for any
trip. I rarely go any where without topping off the tanks and I
carry 5 1/2 hours worth. I will set down when I get near one hour
left even if only a half hour from my destination.

The only trip I can recall where I took off with less than full tanks
was with about half fuel and that was from Jefco loaded to gross for
the density altitude.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


I guess some people are just less risk averse than others?

The Americans formed up during the day, often climbing out through
dense cloud

One of the more famous paragraphs that Stephen Ambrose stole from
Thomas Childers had to do with this:

"Up, up, up he went, until he got above the clouds. No amount of
practice could have prepared the pilot and crew for what they
encountered--B-24s, glittering like mica, were popping up out of the
clouds over here, over there, everywhere."

http://www.warbirdforum.com/copycat.htm

They may not have FORMED UP in the cloud, but they had plenty of
opportunities to collide on their way to the formup.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

On Tue, 25 May 2004 00:03:40 GMT, David Megginson
wrote:

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about

This video has been recommended to me. Is it worth seeing? (I'm not
interested in a Michael Moore screed. I get all that stuff I can stand
on the local cocktail party circuit.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

In article , John Fitzpatrick wrote:
Have to admit, I'm not sure I would be comfortable going up in a 140 that
someone bought for 15K.

I own a quarter share in a Schleicher Ka-8 glider that was bought a
couple of years ago for eqiv. US $6K. It is in absolutely mint
condition. We also just bought a Ka-7 for equiv. US $2500 which is in
good condition.

I spent a very fun hour and a half setting a minor unofficial Manx altitude
record in the Ka-8 on Sunday.

Flying doesn't have to be outrageously expensive - there are many ways
to afford flying on even a modest income.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"