First Time Buyer. Help!

Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from the end of aviationns

"KayInPA" wrote in message
om...
Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from the end of aviationns

1) Figure out what your "mission" is, then buy the airplane for that
mission.
2) Don't buy the first airplane you look at.
3) Don't buy an airplane because it has a pretty paint job.
4) Find a good mechanic (get references) who is familiar with the aircraft
type you're looking at. Preferably this mechanic will be at your home
field. Explain to the mechanic that not only are you looking for an
airplane, you're looking for a mechanic. Have that mechanic do your
pre-purchase inspection.
5) Buy the nicest (i.e. best equipped, properly maintained) airplane you
can afford. It'll be cheaper in the long run than upgrading an airplane
with a bad paint job, used up engine, or ancient avionics.

KB

Kyles advice is right on. I would add "buy an airplane that you can afford
to fly without thinking about the expense" I know some frustrated pilots
who don't fly much because the Baron (or whatever) is expensive enough that
they don't fly it unless they really need to go somewhere. Also I would
prefer an airplane that I could keep at the nearest airport. So if the
nearest airport does not have hanger space availible, get an airplane that
you are willing to leave outside.

Mike
MU-2

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...

"KayInPA" wrote in message
om...
Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from the end of aviationns

1) Figure out what your "mission" is, then buy the airplane for that
mission.
2) Don't buy the first airplane you look at.
3) Don't buy an airplane because it has a pretty paint job.
4) Find a good mechanic (get references) who is familiar with the
aircraft
type you're looking at. Preferably this mechanic will be at your home
field. Explain to the mechanic that not only are you looking for an
airplane, you're looking for a mechanic. Have that mechanic do your
pre-purchase inspection.
5) Buy the nicest (i.e. best equipped, properly maintained) airplane you
can afford. It'll be cheaper in the long run than upgrading an airplane
with a bad paint job, used up engine, or ancient avionics.

KB

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:33:56 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Kyles advice is right on. I would add "buy an airplane that you can afford
to fly without thinking about the expense" I know some frustrated pilots
who don't fly much because the Baron (or whatever) is expensive enough that
they don't fly it unless they really need to go somewhere. Also I would
prefer an airplane that I could keep at the nearest airport. So if the
nearest airport does not have hanger space availible, get an airplane that
you are willing to leave outside.

Mike, thanks very much. I hadn't considered the fact that until
hangar space becomes available, we'll be tying her down.

Mike
MU-2

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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Great advice and do your homework on maintenance and insurance costs.
But don't let it discourage you, you'll never have a better feeling
with all your clothes on than when you get your first flying machine.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:32:21 -0500, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:


"KayInPA" wrote in message
. com...
Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from the end of aviationns

1) Figure out what your "mission" is, then buy the airplane for that
mission.
2) Don't buy the first airplane you look at.
3) Don't buy an airplane because it has a pretty paint job.
4) Find a good mechanic (get references) who is familiar with the aircraft
type you're looking at. Preferably this mechanic will be at your home
field. Explain to the mechanic that not only are you looking for an
airplane, you're looking for a mechanic. Have that mechanic do your
pre-purchase inspection.
5) Buy the nicest (i.e. best equipped, properly maintained) airplane you
can afford. It'll be cheaper in the long run than upgrading an airplane
with a bad paint job, used up engine, or ancient avionics.

KB

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:32:21 -0500, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:

Hi Kyle,

1) Figure out what your "mission" is, then buy the airplane for that
mission.

Yes, that's the trickiest part! We know that we primarily want to
share the airplane for training purposes (i.e. our instrument ratings)
with the secondary goal being the freedom to go further away and for
longer stretches of time than our FBO allows. I think an IFR 172 fits
the first bill exactly right, but it doesn't fit the second objective
nearly as well.

Considering training expenses, a 100 nm rental-airplane leash may
quickly turn the $100 hamburger into sort of a $7,000 hamburger.

4) Find a good mechanic (get references) who is familiar with the aircraft
type you're looking at. Preferably this mechanic will be at your home
field. Explain to the mechanic that not only are you looking for an
airplane, you're looking for a mechanic. Have that mechanic do your
pre-purchase inspection.

We are very fortunate to have an ATP pilot friend who is also an A&P
willing to help us look at airplanes. Choosing a person who will
ultimately be our regular mechanic is something else, and is on the
list to do before we get serious about any particular airplane.

5) Buy the nicest (i.e. best equipped, properly maintained) airplane you
can afford. It'll be cheaper in the long run than upgrading an airplane
with a bad paint job, used up engine, or ancient avionics.

Excellent advice. Thank you very much!


--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

with the secondary goal being the freedom to go further away and for
longer stretches of time than our FBO allows. I think an IFR 172 fits

Does your FBO actually have a limit on how far away you can take the
airplane in miles? That would be quite odd and would seem to defeat the
point of flying.

If the problem instead is that the FBO has a minimum number of hours for a
daily rental, then I suspect that even if you took the airplane for a week
at a time occasionally with say a 3-hour daily minimum, you still would come
out way, way ahead financially compared with owning your airplane.

Not only that, but if you are known to the FBO as a responsible renter and
frequent customer, I suspect you might well be able to negotiate more
flexible cross-country rental terms than the official terms offered to the
public.

In my mind these are the reasons to buy an airplane:

(1) You fly so many trips that you frequently run into scheduling conflicts
with your local rental airplanes

(2) You plan to fly IFR and cannot locate a rental airplane equipped with
the redundant equipment you prefer for those flights, i.e. backup vacuum
pump or electric AI

(3) You have concerns about the maintenance of the locally available rental
airplanes

(4) You wish to fly an airplane type or class which is not practically
available for rental, i.e. a high performance complex airplane

(5) Pride of ownership -- this is fine on its own as a rationalization as
long as you realize you will pay SUBSTANTIALLY more money to own an airplane
similarly equipped as one you can rent


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...
In my mind these are the reasons to buy an airplane:

(1) You fly so many trips that you frequently run into scheduling
conflicts
with your local rental airplanes

(2) You plan to fly IFR and cannot locate a rental airplane equipped with
the redundant equipment you prefer for those flights, i.e. backup vacuum
pump or electric AI

(3) You have concerns about the maintenance of the locally available
rental
airplanes

(4) You wish to fly an airplane type or class which is not practically
available for rental, i.e. a high performance complex airplane

(5) Pride of ownership -- this is fine on its own as a rationalization as
long as you realize you will pay SUBSTANTIALLY more money to own an
airplane
similarly equipped as one you can rent

#1 and #4 go pretty much exacerbate each other, wouldn't you say?

Years ago, when I was building time, the club I belonged to had only two of
about 25 planes that even mildly IFR equipped.

Right now, I'm looking to buy since most of it's use will be for business
(about 75% or more).

You might add a (6) Ability to take overnight trips.

If you need to be gone 2-3 days, it's not unrealistic to expect to be
charged 9 hours time.

Fortunately we'll be able to afford a "newer" airplane (1987-1992). Anything
to look out for going THAT way?

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


You might add a (6) Ability to take overnight trips.

I would only add that if your overnight trips require IFR equipment not
available in a rental airplane.

As much as it is frustrating to pay 9 hours minimum rental for a 2-3 day
trip, almost certainly this would be cheaper than buying an airplane.
Suppose your rental airplane costs $80/hour and you have to pay for 4 hours
you do not use -- $320 is nothing compared with surprise maintenance bills
you could get owning an airplane. Suppose you make 10 such trips in a year
for $3,200 in rental "overcharges" -- you will pay far more in maintenance,
hangar/tiedown, and insurance for an airplane you own.

Fortunately we'll be able to afford a "newer" airplane (1987-1992).
Anything
to look out for going THAT way?

It all depends what your flying mission is -- the best advice though was
given earlier in this thread by Mike Rappaport and that is to buy an
airplane which you can buy without thinking about the cost per hour to fly.
It is quite common for pilots to own airplanes and then not fly them as much
as they would like because they are concerned about the incremental costs of
fuel or maintenance to fly the airplane; that means they bought more
airplane than they can afford to fly OR maintain. They would be much better
off either renting or buying a less expensive airplane. And by the way,
this phenomenon applies to everything from a C152 to a cabin-class twin;
there is definitely a tendency of pilots to buy the most expensive airplane
they can stretch their budget to afford, whereas a much better plan is to
buy an airplane which is a step down to something where cost is not a major
concern in the family budget.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 14:35:54 GMT, "Richard Kaplan"
wrote:

Does your FBO actually have a limit on how far away you can take the
airplane in miles?

Yes. 100 nm for rentals. The owner prefers to do all work on his
aircraft and that is the distance he is comfortable flying out in the
event of needed repair.

That would be quite odd and would seem to defeat the
point of flying.

I agree. Hence, this thread. :-)

If the problem instead is that the FBO has a minimum number of hours for a
daily rental, then I suspect that even if you took the airplane for a week
at a time occasionally with say a 3-hour daily minimum, you still would come
out way, way ahead financially compared with owning your airplane.

I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable minimum. It is availability for
longer trips that I'm looking for.

Not only that, but if you are known to the FBO as a responsible renter and
frequent customer, I suspect you might well be able to negotiate more
flexible cross-country rental terms than the official terms offered to the
public.

I am still hopeful that negotiation for the Arrow will be possible for
some cross countries moderately over 100 nm this summer. Pittsburgh
to Sandusky, OH comes immediately to mind.

Richard, thank you for all your thoughtful posts to me on this
subject. You and the other experienced pilots in the group have given
me a *lot* to think about.

I'm taking a cross-country flight from my home field in Pittsburgh to
Chicago with my instructor tomorrow. Yes, that's far beyond the
normal 100 nm rule, but the owner realizes the educational value of
such a trip and we got an exception.

At the least, I think I need to discuss an arrangement with him
regarding the Arrow. You are correct: it is seldomly rented. Perhaps
with generous renter's hull insurance and an agreement regarding
potential repairs on the road, something may be worked out.

Again, to you and to all the others: my many many thanks.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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