Kawa rough landing?

"Pilots are still killing themselves in low level stall-spin"
Why? We are not in agreement on the "why" part 2g. You are pushing the standard line about "coordination". A bunch of us on here are saying WRONG. Coordination is of SeCONDARY importance in relation to ENERGY MANAGEMENT.

I can fly an entirely uncoordinated pattern, slipping all over the place, skidding all over the place and still not be in danger of a stall/spin. Your guy can fly totally coordinated and screw the pooch into a stall/spin because he doesnt manage the energy properly!!

Imop, many are emphasising the wrong factor in stall/spin prevention

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:16:31 -0700, Eric Greenwell
wrote:


I've never had anyone flying the usual PIK, DG, ASH, and Ventus self-launchers
mention plummeting or reduced control authority to me, but I'm sure there must be
some like that. What gliders have this plummet/control authority problem, and how
bad is the plummet (same as half spoiler, full spoiler, etc), and reduction in
control?

Arcus M - you ought to be able to find a operating handbook online.
WIth extended power plant the L/D decreases to 13/1 and minimum sink
rate to 443 fpm.

So far I've seen two DG-400s crash that were trying to land with
extended power plant and didn't reach the runway.

Cheers
Andreas

Tom,

I think you misread my post. No one ever practices spins at pattern height and I'd never recommend it. My point was that practicing spins and spin entry and recovery at altitude might save your life should a moment of distraction in the pattern lead to a departure. Never practicing spins at all leads you to trying to figure everything out for the first time at low altitude should the worst happen. Early recognition is half the battle.

Andy

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:25:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
To paraphrase advice from Wolfgang Langewiesche in Stick and Rudder: if *anything* surprising ever happens in a turn immediately unload (i.e aerodynamically) the wing.

IMO it should be ingrained in every pilot's mind that the instant he is surprised during a turn the he should move the stick forward - only after that should he analyse the situation.

I try to teach myself to respond to a wing drop with stick forward and slightly into the wing drop (to reduce the AOA) and opposite (usually top) rudder. It's a good reflex to build.

Andy Blackburn
9B

Many gliders are not approved for deliberate spinning. Do you guys recommend spinning them anyway? My approach to spin avoidance is to monitor the airspeed, and to teach that if the nose ever goes down uncommanded to push the stick forwards.

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 4:31:25 AM UTC+1, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:25:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
To paraphrase advice from Wolfgang Langewiesche in Stick and Rudder: if *anything* surprising ever happens in a turn immediately unload (i.e aerodynamically) the wing.

IMO it should be ingrained in every pilot's mind that the instant he is surprised during a turn the he should move the stick forward - only after that should he analyse the situation.

I try to teach myself to respond to a wing drop with stick forward and slightly into the wing drop (to reduce the AOA) and opposite (usually top) rudder. It's a good reflex to build.

Andy Blackburn
9B

I completely agree with that Andy. And you don't always have to be flying to do that, the reflex can be reinforced sitting at home repeatedly rehearsing it in your mind.

On 9/20/2019 1:21 AM, waremark wrote:
Many gliders are not approved for deliberate spinning. Do you guys
recommend spinning them anyway? My approach to spin avoidance is to monitor
the airspeed, and to teach that if the nose ever goes down uncommanded to
push the stick forwards.

Practice, practce, practice.

Leads to (immediate) reaction(s), reaction(s), reaction(s). Good and useful
stuff...at many levels IMO.

Most of my flight time is in 3 ship types: 1-26; (V-tailed) HP-14; Zuni. The
latter two both registered in the (USA's) Experimental category.

The only one I spun was the 1-26.Seventeen turns max one direction; 6 turns
max the other (after which it always self recovered in [as I recall] a
slipping, spiraling, dive...which I never let continue very long). Difficult
(in the asleep at the switch sense of things) to induce any sort of departure
from controlled flight at my (light) weight, much less a spin...but a great
ship in which to practice inadvertent departures...and fun to spin, too.
Difficult to imagine a safer/better glider in which to "practice spinning."
SN105, and - as always, when dealing with spinning - YMMV!

I intentionally never spun the HP because I was unconvinced it had sufficient
tail-feather power to break a fully-developed spin, and, no one was paying me
to be a test pilot. Nor did my uncommanded-departure-practice suggest 'instant
spinning' was in my immediate future. Like the 1-26 it, too, required
serious/continuing inattention to induce even a hint of wing drop, and
'instantaneous' forward stick and opposite rudder quickly set things right
within 90-degree of heading change (the most I ever let it go).

The Zuni (as shown in the ship logs) *was* spun by a(n unpaid, I think, and
intentional) test pilot, but never by me beyond the departure-related wing
drop/initial rotation because of personal-skill-related concerns associated
with overspeeding the diving recovery...buttressed by my personal
rationale/concerns about the 'guaranteed repeatability' of fully-developed
spin behavior in any bird. That said, it too was docility personified in its
'asleep at the switch' departure-related behaviors (which varied with flap
settings). How do I know? Practice, practice, practice...

And so...just to be explicit, *I* certainly don't recommend anyone play Joe
Test Pilot in the spinning sense - *especially* if the ship's POH explicitly
prohibits spins. There's a continuum of ship-behavior (and time) between an
uncommanded departure from controlled flight, and a fully-developed spin, and
'practicing sensibly' along that continuum is what I seriously recommend.
Readers are free to interpret such free advice as they wish...or misinterpret
it, too.

Memory, and muscle memory, are your friends when it comes to the unavoidable,
ever-thin(ning) margin patterns and the (should be, dry chuckle) dreaded
uncommanded departure from controlled flight...which continues to be a common
source of pilot fatalities...a good 80+ years after general pilot knollich of
spins, their causes, recommended-recovery-methodology therefrom (or not,
sigh...) were 'essentially understood.'

Practice - and common sense - can be your friends. :-)

Bob W.

---
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On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:18:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 4:31:25 AM UTC+1, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:25:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
To paraphrase advice from Wolfgang Langewiesche in Stick and Rudder: if *anything* surprising ever happens in a turn immediately unload (i.e aerodynamically) the wing.

IMO it should be ingrained in every pilot's mind that the instant he is surprised during a turn the he should move the stick forward - only after that should he analyse the situation.

I try to teach myself to respond to a wing drop with stick forward and slightly into the wing drop (to reduce the AOA) and opposite (usually top) rudder. It's a good reflex to build.

Andy Blackburn
9B

I completely agree with that Andy. And you don't always have to be flying to do that, the reflex can be reinforced sitting at home repeatedly rehearsing it in your mind.

You can also fly Condor which is a GREAT tool, but nothing beats spins in the real aircraft. For the first ten years of my soaring career I made spin training an annual occurrence, in part because the instructor is the best pilot I have ever flown with. I stopped a nimbus 4 that departed within ¼ turn above a ridge, because of that training. Twenty-five years later I still make an excuse to fly with this semi-retired instructor on occasion, more aerobatics. And I still learn something new each time we fly. Slow flight is also a great was to get to know an aircraft.

Continuing the thread drift:Â* One day, many years ago, my partner in an
LS-6a asked me if I'd ever stalled it in landing configuration. He said
it would depart in a lively manner.Â* So, one day at the end of a flight,
and with altitude to spare, I practiced traffic pattern stalls in the
landing configuration.Â* ...And it was lively!Â* After that, I paid a lot
more attention to AoA and yaw string in the pattern.

On 9/20/2019 9:09 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:18:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 4:31:25 AM UTC+1, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:25:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
To paraphrase advice from Wolfgang Langewiesche in Stick and Rudder: if *anything* surprising ever happens in a turn immediately unload (i.e aerodynamically) the wing.

IMO it should be ingrained in every pilot's mind that the instant he is surprised during a turn the he should move the stick forward - only after that should he analyse the situation.
I try to teach myself to respond to a wing drop with stick forward and slightly into the wing drop (to reduce the AOA) and opposite (usually top) rudder. It's a good reflex to build.

Andy Blackburn
9B
I completely agree with that Andy. And you don't always have to be flying to do that, the reflex can be reinforced sitting at home repeatedly rehearsing it in your mind.
You can also fly Condor which is a GREAT tool, but nothing beats spins in the real aircraft. For the first ten years of my soaring career I made spin training an annual occurrence, in part because the instructor is the best pilot I have ever flown with. I stopped a nimbus 4 that departed within ¼ turn above a ridge, because of that training. Twenty-five years later I still make an excuse to fly with this semi-retired instructor on occasion, more aerobatics. And I still learn something new each time we fly. Slow flight is also a great was to get to know an aircraft.

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 2:21:19 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
Many gliders are not approved for deliberate spinning. Do you guys recommend spinning them anyway? My approach to spin avoidance is to monitor the airspeed, and to teach that if the nose ever goes down uncommanded to push the stick forwards.

Is it about their age or design? I'm curious if there are any modern gliders (not motorgliders) not approved for spinning by design - which ones? Thanks.