How often do you have to go around?

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

Dan wrote:
Right.. for example at OSH where they are landing 3 planes at a time on
the same runway.


Oshkosh gets a special exemption to allow that. Normally,
there are stricter rules that the controllers must follow.
They have to plan (with little exception) that one aircraft
can not touch down until the other is clear.

At HPN, sometimes they play a little game. If the spacing is tight, the
controller will ask the first plane, "Are you clear of the runway?". If
the pilot has any savvy at all, he'll reply that he is, regardless of
whether he's really over the hold short line or not. The tower will then
immediately give me my landing clearance.

Everybody wins. I don't get sent around and controller has "proof" on the
recording that he didn't break any rules.

Ron Natalie wrote:



They have to plan (with little exception) that one aircraft
can not touch down until the other is clear.

Not even close to being correct. In fact most operations at GA airports
allow two aircraft on the runway. The general rule is if either
aircraft is a jet or weighs more than 12,500 then only one on the runway.

Newps wrote:


Ron Natalie wrote:



They have to plan (with little exception) that one aircraft
can not touch down until the other is clear.

Not even close to being correct. In fact most operations at GA airports
allow two aircraft on the runway. The general rule is if either
aircraft is a jet or weighs more than 12,500 then only one on the runway.

Yep. And that's something that needs to be taught more, because it
shocked me when it first happened to me. My instructor never told me
anything about it,and very few people I talked to knew it was legal.

Martin Hotze wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

Either way. The only time the class preference occurs
is when coverging at other than headon (or nearly so).
Other than that the other rules apply. On approach,
the aircraft on final has the right of way. This is
not a problem for gliders, generally. While they
can't go around, they will yield to powered aircraft
already on final and pull in behind them. This is
almost never an issue because gliders are flying a
lot slower.

Emily wrote:


Sometimes the overtaking aircraft can't. Sorry, but when I'm on final
in some planes I can't slow down for the jerk in front of me doing 50
knots.

Then it's required that you give way in some other fashion. The
jerk doing 50 knots on final may be operating as fast as prudently
safe. Just as Mister MixedPickles in his computer game, it is
imcumbant on you to manouver to give the right of way to those
how have it.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Emily wrote:


Sometimes the overtaking aircraft can't. Sorry, but when I'm on final
in some planes I can't slow down for the jerk in front of me doing 50
knots.

Then it's required that you give way in some other fashion.

How, when tower expects me to stay on final? I'm not trying to be a
bitch, but I can't tell you how many times I'm going into a large
airport with someone in front of me out for his Sunday stroll. Class B
and C towers generally don't want a following aircraft breaking off an
approach because the aircraft in front is so slow.

B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 17:26:03 -0500, Emily
wrote:

Class B
and C towers generally don't want a following aircraft breaking off an
approach because the aircraft in front is so slow.

Do you fly into weirdo B & C's that don't have radar? G

Sometimes I think so.

Won't they tell you to "slow for spacing"? And if you can't, you
answer "unable", and then THEY figure out what's the next step?

Well, I have been told to reduce speed. Unfortunately, sometimes I am
going so much faster than if I were to simply say "unable", I'd be in
the back of the next airplane. I know that I can deviate from ATC
instructions if I'm going to rear end someone, but I prefer to keep from
having to do that in the first place.

I've been sent around or in a 360 at large airports because I wasn't
approaching fast enough to not get run over by an airliner. Where are
you flying where a Bravo or Charlie controller would let you run over
a slow aircraft?

IND, MDW, and DAL come to mind as airports where I've almost run down
slower aircraft and tower just sat on their hands. Oh, and CVG, but IND
is definitely the worst offender.

Timmay wrote:


You're on notice.


Ooooh!

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

If I hear "make right downwind," I take this to mean (based on what
I've read) that I should join the downwind leg at some point at a
45-degree angle, and that the pattern is one in which all turns are
right turns (and thus is to the right of the runway, as seen by
someone coming straight in).

Right hand pattern = all turns are made to the right from the pilot's
perspective... take the "as seen by someone coming straight in" part out...
Right hand pattern is take off, followed by a right turn to crosswind,
follwed shortly by a right turn to downwind, followed by a right turn to
base, follwed by a right turn to final.

Standard pattern entry is a 45 to the downwind... However, when going into
places like Boeing Field, it depends on where you are coming from... i.e.
if you are arriving at Boeing Field from the south and they are landing to
the south, the real life controller will just have do a "zero degree entry"
to the downwind... if you are approaching from the NE (downtown Bellevue)
and they are landing to the south they will usually tell you "report Seward
Park" and at Seward park tell you "Cleared to land 13L" (short runway) and
you have to make about 135 degree right hand turn to enter the downwind.
The will occaisonally tell you "enter base for 13L" when coming from
Bellevue, but have gotten the "Seward Park" thing much more frequently. And
if you are approaching Boeing from the West, it is about a 90 degree entry
to the downwind and "close in" (over the river)

And then of course Flight Sim doesn't cover local VFR procedures like
"Mercer Departure" or "Vashon Departure", but that is kind of expected since
there are so many airports in the product and many of them are not official
FAA procedures i.e. try finding an FAA definition for "Vashon Departure" or
"Mercer Departure", but in real life if you ask for a "Vashon Departure" the
controller will clear you for and know exactly what you are talking about.

Too bad there isn't a Virtual FAA in MSFS that you put on those Virtual
Pilot's butts....

They all sound and behave the same. As it is, there's hardly every
anyone in the pattern, except maybe for one other aircraft, so one
can't easily simulate flying a busy pattern. Then again, given my
current lack of skill in flying patterns, there might be bodies and
aircraft chunks flying everywhere if I had to negotiate a pattern with
other aircraft in it.

Basic point of my comment was that the flight sim doesn't necessarily
represent real life accurately in this aspect and that it would be a "fun
feature" to have the FAA come down on the AI Pilots in flight sim, and that
it is not a really good tool if you are trying to familiarize yourself with
how things work at the real airport.

Emily wrote:

Ron Natalie wrote:

Emily wrote:


Sometimes the overtaking aircraft can't. Sorry, but when I'm on
final in some planes I can't slow down for the jerk in front of me
doing 50 knots.


Then it's required that you give way in some other fashion.


How, when tower expects me to stay on final? I'm not trying to be a
bitch, but I can't tell you how many times I'm going into a large
airport with someone in front of me out for his Sunday stroll. Class B
and C towers generally don't want a following aircraft breaking off an
approach because the aircraft in front is so slow.

Tell the tower you are unable to maintain separation due the speed of
the aircraft in front and request a 360. They'll either approve it or
give you an alternative.

Matt