Spooky flights

Jay Honeck writes:

You're the one who challenged the facts.

There are no "facts" at issue here.

No one was "crowing" about freedom until you denied its existence
in the United States.

Americans constantly brag about "freedom." Freedom this, Freedom
that; they love to use the word. Indeed, they talk about it a lot
more than they practice it. They seem to think they invented freedom,
and they also seem to think they have a monopoly on it.

In my relatively brief lifetime, I've started three businesses, moved
my family across state lines, flown airplanes, driven cars, and ridden
motorcycles across this continent from coast to coast -- all without
permission from any governmental body.

That's possible in a great many countries.

No permission was ever granted, because none was required. In a free
country we are free to do these things, by law, unquestioned.

How many TFRs have you flown into? Have you ever had all your
property seized because someone hinted that you might be doing
something illegal (even if you weren't)? Has the Secret Service ever
thrown you out of your house or office for Presidential events?

There are a lot of bad things that can happen, and a lot of freedoms
that no longer exist. Just because you haven't experienced these bad
things and haven't missed the freedoms that you've lost doesn't make
it okay.

Right now my plane is sitting in its hangar, ten minutes from here,
fully fueled and ready to go. If I wished, I could go fly it to
California right now -- a distance of 1350 nautical miles -- without
saying a word to anyone, or asking permission of *any* governmental
body.

Unless you find a TFR surrounding your airport, in which case you
can't go anywhere.

I am free to bitch, moan and complain about every idiot in my
government -- and do so loudly and frequently, in very public forums.
I do all of these things, every day, without fear of reprisal or
consequences.

Unless you say something that sounds threatening, in which case you
can end up in a Federal prison. And if some of these officials don't
like you, they can have you thrown in jail for no particular reason at
all.

Read the U.S. Code sometime; it can be enlightening.

I challenge you to name another country where I could do all of these
things with the same degree of freedom and odds of success.

Most developed countries allow these things.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:46:00 -0500, mike regish wrote:

But, oh yeah, Eat-my-dick-ajad and that freak haired shrimp over in North
Korea are rational and reasonable people.

They sure think the same way.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. http://www.casualdisobedience.com/

"Nomen Nescio" wrote
The planes come in low over Rt 20 for landing on rnwy 6.
The parking area is right next to the fence. A little left of
the rnwy centerline.

MKE has (had?) a north/south runway that has road running east/west down in
a valley just off of the approach end of the runway. To the south of that
road is another hill that tops out at the same height as the runway.

I remember one crisp, blue, fall day many years ago when my wife and I
stopped there during a motorcycle ride. The north runway was in use, and we
climbed up that hill and lay there on our backs as the jets would scream
over us coming in to land. They looked like they couldn't have been more
than 100-200 feet over us since the approach end of the runway was only 1/4
mile or so from where we were lying. It was a windy day and after they
passed overhead you could see how much of a crab angle they had relative to
the runway.

That was a neat day.

BDS

Most developed countries allow these things.

To lesser degrees, yes -- they all offer aspects of the freedoms we in
America (sorry Jim!) take for granted.

But not to the degree the US allows them.

And *that* is the point.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I remember one crisp, blue, fall day many years ago when my wife and I
stopped there during a motorcycle ride. The north runway was in use, and we
climbed up that hill and lay there on our backs as the jets would scream
over us coming in to land. They looked like they couldn't have been more
than 100-200 feet over us since the approach end of the runway was only 1/4
mile or so from where we were lying. It was a windy day and after they
passed overhead you could see how much of a crab angle they had relative to
the runway.

That was a neat day.

Mary and I have been on that very road, in that very spot. It's an
awesome place to watch planes land -- and it was the first place I
ever *heard* vortices generated by the wingtips of airliners. It's
an eerie sound that continues for quite a while after the plane has
landed...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Feb 1, 11:26 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
all the good *that* will do).

Oh, so it's our fault for living here, huh? Some pilots are stationed
here, sent here by their companies, live here to be close to ill
family members, work here to develop their professional career, or any
number of other reasons which you wish would go away so we'd stop
complaining. How inconvenient for you.

After 5+ years, it's time to either
adapt -- or move. (I know several folks who have.)

If you really know people who moved because of the ADIZ, you're
refuting your argument that it's a "small price to pay". News flash:
people don't rearrange their lives over minor inconveniences. It's
been exactly 4 years this month that the ADIZ was established -- not
since 9-11. A temporary measure. A "small price to pay".

snip
And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.

That would be the 99.9% of the country I was referring to.

And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before. In
short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
--

The ADIZ alone affects 10,000 pilots. You don't represent 99.9% of
the rest of the country. You live and fly in the middle of nowhere.
Good for you, but most people don't. Most pilots in this country live
near cities, and that means NFL TFRs, MLB TFRs, NASCAR TFRs, NCAA
TFRs, and nuclear plant TFRs. That's what everybody else deals with.
Not to mention popup 30 nm TFRs for the President, and the moving TFRs
during the campaign. Sure doesn't sound free to me.

And the worst thing is that since 9-11, the ideas of due process and
presumed innocence are gone, as are any consideration of
circumstances. Accused drug dealers get more breaks than pilots in
these airspace violation hearings. These are people whose only crime,
if they committed one at all, was to get momentarily lost. Ever been
proned out on national TV for getting lost, Jay?

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and that's just aviation. I could
fill pages on what's happened in other areas, all of which you seem
blissfully unaware. No, we're far less free than on 9-10-2001. Your
ignorance of reality doesn't change it.

You have thoughtful and valid observations. Yet, I suspect, you'd
agree in spite of these issues and other problems we still live in a
great country. Some of us could live nearly anywhere we'd like, but
there just hasn't been much migration from the United States.

I do know a fair number of well educated foreign nationals living and
working here (legally), but very few of my friends have gone abroad
for a serious length of time to advance their careers. It may be my
sampling is biased, I've been privileged to live near well known
universities most of my adult life.




On Feb 3, 10:04 am, "Jim M" wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:26 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:



These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
all the good *that* will do).

Oh, so it's our fault for living here, huh? Some pilots are stationed
here, sent here by their companies, live here to be close to ill
family members, work here to develop their professional career, or any
number of other reasons which you wish would go away so we'd stop
complaining. How inconvenient for you.

After 5+ years, it's time to either
adapt -- or move. (I know several folks who have.)

If you really know people who moved because of the ADIZ, you're
refuting your argument that it's a "small price to pay". News flash:
people don't rearrange their lives over minor inconveniences. It's
been exactly 4 years this month that the ADIZ was established -- not
since 9-11. A temporary measure. A "small price to pay".

snip
And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.

That would be the 99.9% of the country I was referring to.

And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before. In
short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
--

The ADIZ alone affects 10,000 pilots. You don't represent 99.9% of
the rest of the country. You live and fly in the middle of nowhere.
Good for you, but most people don't. Most pilots in this country live
near cities, and that means NFL TFRs, MLB TFRs, NASCAR TFRs, NCAA
TFRs, and nuclear plant TFRs. That's what everybody else deals with.
Not to mention popup 30 nm TFRs for the President, and the moving TFRs
during the campaign. Sure doesn't sound free to me.

And the worst thing is that since 9-11, the ideas of due process and
presumed innocence are gone, as are any consideration of
circumstances. Accused drug dealers get more breaks than pilots in
these airspace violation hearings. These are people whose only crime,
if they committed one at all, was to get momentarily lost. Ever been
proned out on national TV for getting lost, Jay?

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and that's just aviation. I could
fill pages on what's happened in other areas, all of which you seem
blissfully unaware. No, we're far less free than on 9-10-2001. Your
ignorance of reality doesn't change it.

Tony writes:

You have thoughtful and valid observations. Yet, I suspect, you'd
agree in spite of these issues and other problems we still live in a
great country.

It used to be better. After a while, the "great country" rhetoric
starts to ring a bit hollow. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed
man is king, but that doesn't mean that having one eye is great
vision.

Some of us could live nearly anywhere we'd like, but
there just hasn't been much migration from the United States.

It's very difficult to emigrate, actually. And one must be strongly
motivated, which most people aren't. Many people are like the
proverbial frog in a pot of water that is slowly brought to a boil.

I do know a fair number of well educated foreign nationals living and
working here (legally), but very few of my friends have gone abroad
for a serious length of time to advance their careers.

Most people who have gone abroad are ... abroad, so you aren't likely
to meet them.

--
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("mike regish" wrote)
It's getting very real again.


What has been done by 'armies on the march' (over, and over, and over, and
over...) the past 3,000 years, is a lesson in human horror.

If people, today, can't hear the drumbeat ...for 'action'... all around the
world, they're deaf to history.


Montblack-days-ahead
Although, the bio stuff scares me more than the nukes.

In a trench, artillery shell or mustard gas?
Hmm? Both have their up-sides.

Jay Honeck writes:

To lesser degrees, yes ...

No, to the _same_ degrees.

Soldiers who risk their lives in Iraq do not have the freedom to drink
alcohol when they return home. But they do have that freedom in other
countries.

-- they all offer aspects of the freedoms we in
America (sorry Jim!) take for granted.

But not to the degree the US allows them.

And *that* is the point.

Except that what you say is not true.

--
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