General Patton on Lieutenant Kerry

Subject: General Patton on Lieutenant Kerry
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/2/04 7:27 AM Pacific Standard Time

OK, if turnabout is fair play and Art always asks for "your
qualifications" then I can say, GWB graduated from USAF pilot training
and qualified in a single seat, single engine fighter where he
performed satisfactorily for nearly four years of duty. Where did you
get your pilot's wings, Art?

I got them at Big Springs AAB in Texas. But I wore them over France, Italy,
Belgium Holland and Germany What combat zones did Bush enter?.I'd say one
bombardier who saw the elephant many time over is worth ten pilots who never
saw a damn thing. But what are we really talkng abou, war or politics?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:41:45 -0600, "S. Sampson"
wrote:

"Tom Cervo" wrote
Whether his medals or someone else's, the issue is not the ownership,
but the oath--to protect and defend. To obey the lawful orders.
Enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. These are phrases of meaning and relate
to a commissioned officer, who never unless stripped of the rank is
anything less, has an obligation to the President he serves and the
warriors still in the fray. To undermine the support for half a
million fighting men still in harm's way by leading protests against
the duly elected government of his country--that's the sin.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of
public
servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree
which is
warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or
inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to
the
Nation as a whole. ..snip..
Theodore Roosevelt
Kansas City "Star"
May 7, 1918

Wonderful quote Tom. I don't think Lt. Kerry was protesting the
President
though. He was protesting the government, and our forces in battle.
Having
done his time, he then banded with a bunch of long-haired scum, who did
more
to our flag then any Arab or Persian setting it on fire abroad. He
broke
faith, and now he wants to be known as a warrior again. Theodore would
have
shot him
on sight, and the public would have applauded "Bully!"


I agree. While Teddy's quote is excellent and very true, it should be
noted that it applies to the citizenry, not the commissioned officer
corps. The idea that the military is free to "support or oppose" as
they judge appropriate is the foundation of anarchy.

I didn't notice such pious statements of patriotism when Clinton was
President.
Whether by civilians or military, or deserved or not, he was vilified and
besmirched on numerous occasions and nobody was muzzled because of it.

Where were YOU during those years? You never heard about the admonitions and
outright threats of legal action regarding making comments prejudicial to
Clinton when he was in office? IIRC one officer was facing a potential
courts martial for writing an OP-ED piece that did not protray the C-in-C in
the best light, to say the least.


Turn about being fair play, I think those who happily dished it out in the
past
need to stop whining and learn how to take it.

I think you need to get your facts straight.

Brooks


George Z.

On 02 Feb 2004 16:06:51 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: General Patton on Lieutenant Kerry
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/2/04 7:27 AM Pacific Standard Time

OK, if turnabout is fair play and Art always asks for "your
qualifications" then I can say, GWB graduated from USAF pilot training
and qualified in a single seat, single engine fighter where he
performed satisfactorily for nearly four years of duty. Where did you
get your pilot's wings, Art?

I got them at Big Springs AAB in Texas.

Read again, slowly. "Where did you get your PILOT'S wings." Sorry, but
thats a cheap shot. Won't do it again.

But I wore them over France, Italy,
Belgium Holland and Germany

Must have been out of uniform. Thought you were supposed to be wearing
the wings with the bomb in the middle, or maybe the ones with the
snakes, not the ones with the radiator.


What combat zones did Bush enter?.I'd say one
bombardier who saw the elephant many time over is worth ten pilots who never
saw a damn thing. But what are we really talkng abou, war or politics?

Ahh, we've had a breakthrough!! We are talking about politics.
Therefore, where did you get your political science degree(s)?

Seriously, here, we are talking about politics and the behavior of
politicians, so your oft repeated questioning of combat experience is
irrelevant. One can have a political opinion without combat
experience. And, one can have combat experience without a correct
political opinion.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On 02 Feb 2004 15:59:51 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: General Patton on Lieutenant Kerry
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/2/04 7:31 AM Pac

es, we've recognized repeatedly that Kerry
holds a commission. Surprised he didn't recall the appropriateness of
wearing ribbons with fatigue uniforms.

Ribbons on fatigues??? Who the hell did that?

John Kerry in the oft-published picture of his VVAW activities. He
wore them during his anti-war testimony to the Senate (imagine the
appropriateness of appearing before a Senate committee in rumpled
fatigues), and during the famous medal-throwing protest.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

LTG (ret) Paul Funk has already come forward--in fact, IIRC his
less-than-laudatory review of Clark came out before Hugh Shelton's did. In
the same article (again, IIRC, it was written by that fellow Galloway who
has a pretty good rep on the military side) a number of other former senior
officers had nothing good to say about him, but were unwilling to go public
until/unless he were to start winning. One of them said if that happens
he'll volunteer to follow Clark to every campaign location to "set the
record straight", so to speak.

On a different aviation message board (flightinfo.com), someone who worked
under Clark at SOCOM related a story about Clark.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...9&perpage=25&h
ighlight=wesley%20clark&pagenumber=2
------------------------------------
"Wesley Clark is an A$$hole
I worked for General Clark when he was the Commander in Chief, U.S. Southern
Command. Both he and his wife were a$$holes. Clark would stab a subordinate in
the back in a heartbeat if it would further his ambitions. His wife Gert also
felt she was entitled to his 4 stars and liked to bully the staff officers.

I arranged one of his military/diplomatic trips in the Carribbean. He wanted
his wife to accompany him on government funding. The JAG (lawyers) said the
itinerary did not justify his wife's travel so it would have to be paid out of
Clark's own pocket, or the itinerary would have to be expanded to include
diplomatic/social type events justifying Gert's presence. I was told to revamp
the itinerary which I did. The JAG approved of the new one, but when I started
actually setting up the events, I got my head handed to me on a platter. It
seems the plan was just to justify her trip, not actually have the events. That
would take away from Gert's shopping and sight-seeing time. I threatened to
whistleblow and Gert decided she'd rather not go than attend any events.
General Clark had a cow and summoned me to his ivory palace for a butt-chewing
and to tell me of my minor importance compared to him. The only reason I did
not call the Pentagon IG after this meeting was the Deputy CINC, a Navy 2 star
and a great guy, personally asked me not too. He arranged for me to have a new
(and actually better) postion within the command where I would not be put in
this situation again.

This guy has no integrity or compassion. He does not care about anyone or
anything but himself. Some of the traits of great military leaders are
protecting their subordinates, giving them credit, and getting them promoted.
General Clark ruined more careers covering his own butt than any general or
flag officer I know. He could care less about their getting promoted and was a
master at taking credit for their work while simultaneously making it look like
they were all f'd-up and only his greatnessed turned a pile of $hit into a pot
of gold.

The vast majority of those who worked for General Clark hated and diepised him.
It would be a sad day for this country if he got elected President."
----------------

Seem consistent with others descriptions of Clark. If the next primary does
not go well for Clark, he might just end up being the only person ever
dismissed twice by Bill Clinton.







Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

(B2431) wrote:

From: Mike Marron


Good post.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

After scrolling down thru 100 lines ot text and a lousy "Good post" is
all you have to add? You, sir, are truly the eptiome of AOLdom. And
nothing's worse than ANY sort of praise or compliment from the likes
of YOU!

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Geeze, marron, lay off the guy. It is possible to disagree with someone without
being nasty about it.

"Good post" is elegant in its simplicity.
Would you rather he wrote a term paper in response?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Exactly...you're about 'this' close to qualifying for your
windbag certificate maroon.
--

-Gord.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

I got them at Big Springs AAB in Texas. But I wore them over France,
Italy,
Belgium Holland and Germany What combat zones did Bush enter?.I'd say one
bombardier who saw the elephant many time over is worth ten pilots who
never
saw a damn thing. But what are we really talkng abou, war or politics?


You got pilot's wings but served as a bombardier?

George wrote:
I didn't notice such pious statements of patriotism when Clinton was
President.
Whether by civilians or military, or deserved or not, he was vilified and
besmirched on numerous occasions and nobody was muzzled because of it.

Turn about being fair play, I think those who happily dished it out in the
past
need to stop whining and learn how to take it.

I guess this means that we shouldn't refer to William Jefferson C as a
"C#@ksu&$er" since he was on the recieving end of the oral sex, but wait.. he
said he didn't have sex with that woman and since he is a politician, he can't
possibly tell an untruth.

Jeeze people, none of this crap has nothing to do with aviation directly.

Also remember, not one Russki bomber crossed the ADIZ in the Gulf of Mexico,
Texas area, without being intercepted during Bush's service in the TXANG.

oxmoron
I'm not too sure about the MS and LA areas.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
Whether his medals or someone else's, the issue is not the ownership,
but the oath--to protect and defend. To obey the lawful orders.
Enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. These are phrases of meaning and relate
to a commissioned officer, who never unless stripped of the rank is
anything less, has an obligation to the President he serves and the
warriors still in the fray. To undermine the support for half a
million fighting men still in harm's way by leading protests against
the duly elected government of his country--that's the sin.

So, what is the proper course of conduct for an officer who truely believes
the war is a mistake and that the best course of action is to withdraw as
soon as possible? If that is the case, then undermining support for the war
does not seem to be entirely inappropriate (provided it is a last resort and
care is taken to avoid giving aiding the enemy -- ala Jane Fonda).

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

But, that would be counter-productive, so let's see what the New York
Times had to say in a revision of the charges. No one can accuse the
NYT of being particularly conservative, and I don't expect Art will
change his mind, but here it is anyway:


After debunking charges of Bush's desertion? Of course the NYT can be
accused of being conservative!