Where to get Winched?

If you're only getting 33% of the rope length, yours is a low
performance winch operation. If you optimize it, 45% or so is
achievable in no-wind conditions. A 10 knot wind can boost that over
50%. Again, I'm saying this is for gliders with better than 30:1 and
rope tensions equal to the weight of the glider. Below 30:1, achieved
height falls off a lot.

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC wrote:
On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.

GC







Chris

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC wrote:
On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.

GC







Chris

100 yards for acceleration is way too long. A 1G acceleration will
get a glider to 40 knots liftoff speed in 71 feet.

On Jun 7, 5:05*am, toad wrote:
The only place that I have ever found advertising an endorsement
training was a soaring club in Houston. *If there are any other
operations that will train a new pilot to winch launch, I have not yet
found them. *They may exist, but they don't advertise.

AGCSC down in southern California runs periodic weekend winch launch
training sessions:

http://www.agcsc.org/

We're putting the finishing touches on a winch that will be used for
training at Crazy Creek in northern California...

Marc

I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 12:26:55 PM UTC-4, soartech wrote:
I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

We have not experienced this at PGC, however, we do not have SSA insurance. I suspect that the carrier's knowledge--or should I say lack of knowledge--may have a lot to do with this.

Skip

GC wrote:

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.

While this is true, there is another reason for a 3000 feet runway: safety.
You need to be prepared for a cable break at any time. Up to 300 feet you
can land straight ahead, if there is enough runway left. If the cable breaks
at a higher altitude, you can do a full circle or a short pattern. If the
runway is too short, you can get in a situation where both options do not
apply.

I guess that you refer to this scenario when you talk about launch
emergency. My opinion is that a cable break is no emergency, but is part of
the procedure. It must be trained well, but if the pilot is prepared for a
break, this is no emergency. You can expect a cable break in one of 100
launches.

BTW, my last break on the winch was in 120m. Too high to land straight, so I
initiated a 180 for a short pattern. After that turn, my altimeter showed
150m. I decided to do a full circle and got 200m. Now I continued and got
1300m in the end. This was fun while the guys below had to fix the cable :-)
Chris

On Jun 6, 6:38*am, Walt Connelly
wrote:
Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Come over to San Antonio Soaring Society, our club located at Boerne
Stage airport (5C1). We winched last weekend and plan to do it once a
month this summer. You can get an endorsement with our CFIG.
Tom

At 02:42 08 June 2012, Tom Nau wrote:
On Jun 6, 6:38=A0am, Walt Connelly
wrote:
Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch
launch
endorsement? =A0ALSO, in general how much runway is
needed for an
adequat=
e
winch launch? =A0What might the minimum runway length
be?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Come over to San Antonio Soaring Society, our club located at
Boerne
Stage airport (5C1). We winched last weekend and plan to do
it once a
month this summer. You can get an endorsement with our
CFIG.
Tom


I applaud your efforts to promote winching, coming from a UK
club with no current aerotow option, winching is my usual (and
cost effective) way into the sky.
This BGA leaflet is essential reading:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...ts/safewinchbr
ochure-0210.pdf
If you ask them nicely, I expect they'd have no objections to
clubs on your side of the pond printing them off for circulation.

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:26:55 AM UTC-6, soartech wrote:
I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

Winch liability insurance was split off from premises liability under the SSA plan. Winch hull insurance is also a separate product. The advantage is that the 3rd party liability now allows operation away from home base. So yes, it did increase the fixed cost of operating a winch and included a restriction against using steel wire or steel wire rope.

On 8/06/2012 03:50, Chris wrote:
GC wrote:

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.

While this is true, there is another reason for a 3000 feet runway: safety.
You need to be prepared for a cable break at any time. Up to 300 feet you
can land straight ahead, if there is enough runway left. If the cable breaks
at a higher altitude, you can do a full circle or a short pattern. If the
runway is too short, you can get in a situation where both options do not
apply.

I guess that you refer to this scenario when you talk about launch
emergency.

Well, yes I do.

My opinion is that a cable break is no emergency, but is part of
the procedure. It must be trained well, but if the pilot is prepared for a
break, this is no emergency. You can expect a cable break in one of 100
launches.

Ok, call it 'launch failures'. Whatever floats your boat.

My actual point was that winching is very flexible. On Long Mynd, a
launch emergency (or failure) high enough for a circuit sometimes means
landing at right angles to the takeoff direction. The actual length
requirement is ONLY for ground over which the wire can be laid out. A
winch operation - unlike aerotow - doesn't necessarily require a single
continuous runway.

GC

BTW, my last break on the winch was in 120m. Too high to land straight, so I
initiated a 180 for a short pattern. After that turn, my altimeter showed
150m. I decided to do a full circle and got 200m. Now I continued and got
1300m in the end. This was fun while the guys below had to fix the cable :-)
Chris