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Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors
"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message ... Nancy, Try explaining how *easy* it is to an eminently qualified student who has washed out of the USAF or USN flight training programs. -- Happy Flying, Ed Hi Ed, You can add US Army to that as well. Like you, I was also introduced to "sims" (I use the term loosely G) via the Link Trainer--Blue Canoe?? G-- back in the 50s. Army got some old ones from the USAF--(thanks, I think) G I hated those things, but they sure did help with procedural items. No way could you say they taught you to fly--ANYTHING. Paul |
#2
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snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the topics. At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and enjoying it) |
#3
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"Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the topics. Reading a few good books will do that, without conditioning you to constantly face front. At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and enjoying it) Happy landings. |
#4
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"kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Just like I do in the sim! G Dashii |
#5
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S Herman wrote in message ... In article , "kallijaa" wrote: Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. Kalijaa I don't know that it will permanently damage anyone, BUT - I am a new student (~12 hours). My instructor told me to stop using the flight sim when I mentioned i had been a fan of them for years. i dont have the time now any way! Since the panel ususally fills most of the screen on the sim, your main clues are the instruments. So, i will agree that it appears that my penchant for observing the instruments is not helping me learn the visual and physical clues for performing the basic manuevers. Most of the manuevers for the PTS seem to be much harder to execute by instrument! And of course, i have to add that my real flying has inmproved my flight simming greatly! :-) just kidding! Same here. My experience with flight simulators around 1983 was a major factor in deciding to get my PPL. I was rarely able to land the sim successfully until after I learned to land the real plane! Cheers, John Clonts Temple, Texas N7NZ |
#6
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"Dashii" wrote in message ... "kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Chris Norris" wrote in message ... snip Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect it will have with respect to primary flight training. Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn to fly in the real world, put the toy away. snip Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version - and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin some flying lessons for real. With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to have the physics and basic principles taken care of. At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in. I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're staring at a computer monitor) Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight, your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion, traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the grade relying on it as you suggest. Just like I do in the sim! G Dashii Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm? Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop. Warmer? By that process you are training your head to habitually remain stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training. Kalijaa |
#7
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look folks, I am a CFI, and I am a flight sim guy. Learning to fly involves learning a huge volume of information. A flight simulator, when properly used, can help a student to learn some of this information. I encourage my students to try things in the simulator, to practice lessons, to practice procedures, to fly cross countries. The ones that do this end up saving time and money in the real plane. The simulator in your PC is not exactly the same as the real plane. But neither is chair flying, or reading a book about flying, or watching a King Schools video. MS flight simulator is a training tool, nothing more, nothing less. I saved tons of time and money because I flew flight simulators when growing up (back in the Apple ][e days). I know it works, I also know I learned bad habits, but when I started to learn to fly the real thing, I quickly learned what transferred directly from simming and what didn't, thanks to my CFI. For those of you that want more out the window view and less panel, try seeing what the "W" key does. Also the +/- keys for zooming. For those of you that want to fly their cross countries more quickly in the simulator, accelerate time, or use the "Y" key to activate Slew mode so you can move the plane around instead of flying it around. This is a nice way to view the scenery. Please also consider hitting "Shift-Backspace" and "Shift-Enter" to raise and lower your seat when in the cockpit. For you CFI's who worry that your students will build bad habits..... you are right. Pilots build bad habits when they fly simulators, but they also build bad habits when they fly real airplanes. Pilots learn bad habits when they read newsgroup articles, and they learn bad habits when they read magazines about flying. The only way to avoid bad habits is to teach them early on to never stop learning, and to never stop being vigiliant of their own habits and behaviors. I also tell students to get a yoke, and if they can afford it, rudder pedals. |
#8
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From: "kallijaa" Subject: Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:54 PM "Dashii" wrote in message ... "kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Ed Forsythe" wrote in message ... Kallijaa, I suspect that you were trolling and you painted yourself into a corner Now you are desperately attempting to extricate yourself. Don't let the facts confuse you - hang in there! -- Happy Flying, Ed I'm quite comfortable in my corner, your suspicions not withstanding. If you read my first post to this thread, you will find that I fully acknowledged the contributions of flight simulators since the beginning of instrument flying. Your experience with Link Trainers might be similar to mine and my true appreciation of them might agree with yours. The Links were roundly hated, but grudgingly used by flying students to learn and practice IFR procedures. Their main asset was the associated plotting tables that enabled them to fly virtual Loop and Adcock (Low Frequency) radio ranges while being monitored by a flight instructor. The rocking and tilting motions produced by the Link's pneumatic systems were laughable and the Trainers had nothing to do with contact flying. Students pilots weren't allowed to come near the dreadful little crates until they were found to be sufficiently proficient in the air. The idea that a fledgling will profit from simulation prior to gaining such proficiency is absurd. Instead, it will have the opposite effect. Simmers are training themselves to do precisely what they shouldn't when flying an airplane under contact conditions. One of the most difficult habits to break in a new student is the natural tendency to stare straight ahead and/or at the instrument panel. Instructors must teach students to keep their heads "out of the cockpit and on a swivel," in order to know where they are, to appreciate in full the attitude of their aircraft and to keep clear of danger in the form of other aircraft and obstructions. Jeez, I thought that I had good situational awareness (SA) from "flying" the sims because visibility is so poor that you must use your outside views. Try flying a combat sim and see how quickly you are shot down if you don't have good SA. Dashii How well you plead my cause. While playing your combat game, you access outside views with your fingers while staring straight ahead. In the air, it doesn't work that-a-way. You are out of touch with modern flight simming. A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down views. There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move your head. Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes, mine is a Precision Flight Control system. I also use GoFlight instruments. Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang gliding, mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc. There are professional pilots just like there are professional sailors, cyclists, etc. Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from someone that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not. Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot certificate. I may and then again I may not. Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G Dashii |
#9
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"flightsimcfi" wrote in message news:gLimb.19722$Fm2.9676@attbi_s04... look folks, I am a CFI, and I am a flight sim guy. Learning to fly involves learning a huge volume of information. A flight simulator, when properly used, can help a student to learn some of this information. I encourage my students to try things in the simulator, to practice lessons, to practice procedures, to fly cross countries. The ones that do this end up saving time and money in the real plane. The simulator in your PC is not exactly the same as the real plane. But neither is chair flying, or reading a book about flying, or watching a King Schools video. MS flight simulator is a training tool, nothing more, nothing less. I saved tons of time and money because I flew flight simulators when growing up (back in the Apple ][e days). I know it works, I also know I learned bad habits, but when I started to learn to fly the real thing, I quickly learned what transferred directly from simming and what didn't, thanks to my CFI. For those of you that want more out the window view and less panel, try seeing what the "W" key does. Also the +/- keys for zooming. For those of you that want to fly their cross countries more quickly in the simulator, accelerate time, or use the "Y" key to activate Slew mode so you can move the plane around instead of flying it around. This is a nice way to view the scenery. Please also consider hitting "Shift-Backspace" and "Shift-Enter" to raise and lower your seat when in the cockpit. For you CFI's who worry that your students will build bad habits..... you are right. Pilots build bad habits when they fly simulators, but they also build bad habits when they fly real airplanes. Pilots learn bad habits when they read newsgroup articles, and they learn bad habits when they read magazines about flying. The only way to avoid bad habits is to teach them early on to never stop learning, and to never stop being vigiliant of their own habits and behaviors. I also tell students to get a yoke, and if they can afford it, rudder pedals. I agree in some parts, disagree in others. There's room for that. As a CFI, you have to deal with the current pool of flying students as they evolve. When they become CFIs the process will be complete. Good or bad? |
#10
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"Dashii" wrote in message ... From: "kallijaa" Subject: Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:54 PM "Dashii" wrote in message ... "kallijaa" wrote in message ... "Ed Forsythe" wrote in message ... Kallijaa, I suspect that you were trolling and you painted yourself into a corner Now you are desperately attempting to extricate yourself. Don't let the facts confuse you - hang in there! -- Happy Flying, Ed I'm quite comfortable in my corner, your suspicions not withstanding. If you read my first post to this thread, you will find that I fully acknowledged the contributions of flight simulators since the beginning of instrument flying. Your experience with Link Trainers might be similar to mine and my true appreciation of them might agree with yours. The Links were roundly hated, but grudgingly used by flying students to learn and practice IFR procedures. Their main asset was the associated plotting tables that enabled them to fly virtual Loop and Adcock (Low Frequency) radio ranges while being monitored by a flight instructor. The rocking and tilting motions produced by the Link's pneumatic systems were laughable and the Trainers had nothing to do with contact flying. Students pilots weren't allowed to come near the dreadful little crates until they were found to be sufficiently proficient in the air. The idea that a fledgling will profit from simulation prior to gaining such proficiency is absurd. Instead, it will have the opposite effect. Simmers are training themselves to do precisely what they shouldn't when flying an airplane under contact conditions. One of the most difficult habits to break in a new student is the natural tendency to stare straight ahead and/or at the instrument panel. Instructors must teach students to keep their heads "out of the cockpit and on a swivel," in order to know where they are, to appreciate in full the attitude of their aircraft and to keep clear of danger in the form of other aircraft and obstructions. Jeez, I thought that I had good situational awareness (SA) from "flying" the sims because visibility is so poor that you must use your outside views. Try flying a combat sim and see how quickly you are shot down if you don't have good SA. Dashii How well you plead my cause. While playing your combat game, you access outside views with your fingers while staring straight ahead. In the air, it doesn't work that-a-way. You are out of touch with modern flight simming. Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't sport a 2Ghz cpu, so maybe. A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down views. A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few. There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move your head. I also like the germ of that idea Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes, mine is a Precision Flight Control system. I also use GoFlight instruments. How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us. Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang gliding, mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc. There are professional pilots just like there are professional sailors, cyclists, etc. Tell your CFI that you are approaching flight as a hobby, and so are unconcerned with flight safety. Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from someone that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not. Alas, your teeming with a lot of news about fancy personal flight simulators, but lack omniscience. Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot certificate. Thanks for the revealing insight. Counterfeit certificates are less expensive and perhaps your only option. I may and then again I may not. Milton Friedman would be proud. Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G Dashii Curses!! Foiled again by Dashii!!!. |
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