Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Ramy wrote on 9/16/2020 5:56 PM:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

You make a persuasive analysis for installing an FES, and I'm sure you will enjoy
the independence and freedom to explore in your flying. Too bad, though, for the
pilots that now occasionally finish above you on the OLC, who will disappointed
that you will push even harder than before :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:23:05 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 8:48:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Airframe hours, years, charge cycles...

Anecdotally I got the impression that there have been more battery fires in FES gliders than fires in gliders with gasoline-fueled engines, at least in recent years, and the number of FES gliders is relatively small. Li-ion seems risky. Personally I hope better battery chemistry will be developed, that is both safer and has the needed energy density. LiFePO4 is safer, and its energy density is improving, some electric cars are switching to it. Other chemistries are in the pipeline.

The UK AAIB/EASA did an investigation into the fires, which is a great and thorough read : https://assets.publishing.service.go...GSGS_09-18.pdf
30 word summary: Suspected either metal contamination at manufacture or owner physical damage to the battery, recommended all batteries be withdrawn from use and redesigned/refurbished, which they .

Don't think there have been any since the redesign in ~2018. There is a fire warning system in new FES gliders now.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 6:57:02 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?
If you are interested in a Touring Motorglider, the Phoenix is the way to go. With the wing tips removed (takes 30 seconds, each weighing 15 lbs) the wingspan is 35 ft and the plane will comfortably fit in any standard T hangar. The Sinus wingspan with tips removed is over 40’ making it a challenge to fit in a regular size T hangar.

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 3:23:30 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 6:57:02 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?
If you are interested in a Touring Motorglider, the Phoenix is the way to go. With the wing tips removed (takes 30 seconds, each weighing 15 lbs) the wingspan is 35 ft and the plane will comfortably fit in any standard T hangar. The Sinus wingspan with tips removed is over 40’ making it a challenge to fit in a regular size T hangar.

My Phoenix is not a substitute for a hi performance sailplane, I've owned a few, but it is a substitute for a light airplane, it is easy to live with, has the big canopy sailplane view, 2 seats side by side, doesn't need a towplane, of which I've owned a few, and climbs nicely in good lift.
Mine has the optional tow hook, haven't used it yet, but its there in case I ever want another sailplane, nearest tow for me is way too far away,
living on an airport means in a few minutes I can be checking out the clouds or taking a sunset flight down the beach.

Hey There Russ Owens
Hello to you and yours!
Thanks for the response.
Question on the ASH25E
It the Rotary engine eats itself up and you drop it off at Rex's shop to fix it, whats your educated guess to completely replace it with all the extra bits.
Nick
T

Nick Kennedy wrote on 9/17/2020 5:06 PM:
Hey There Russ Owens
Hello to you and yours!
Thanks for the response.
Question on the ASH25E
It the Rotary engine eats itself up and you drop it off at Rex's shop to fix it, whats your educated guess to completely replace it with all the extra bits.
Nick
T

Probably should ask Rex, or pilot that's had to do it, and not somebody like Russ
(or me) that hasn't had any problems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:48:10 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Would have to know the total number of installations and fires, and I don't know either, but it is going to be in the one or two percent range. An acceptable number would be 0.1% or less.

Tom

2G wrote on 9/17/2020 5:54 PM:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:48:10 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?



Would have to know the total number of installations and fires, and I don't know either, but it is going to be in the one or two percent range. An acceptable number would be 0.1% or less.

Tom

0.1%? How did you choose that? It's not that good on Schleicher Wankel
installations, like you and I fly. There are about 600 Wankel powered gliders, and
at least 4 fires I know of, which is about 0.6%.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 6:34:01 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/17/2020 5:54 PM:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:48:10 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?



Would have to know the total number of installations and fires, and I don't know either, but it is going to be in the one or two percent range. An acceptable number would be 0.1% or less.

Tom

0.1%? How did you choose that? It's not that good on Schleicher Wankel
installations, like you and I fly. There are about 600 Wankel powered gliders, and
at least 4 fires I know of, which is about 0.6%.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Well, if I was going to fly today and the odds of dying were worse than 1 in a 1000 I probably wouldn't.

Tom

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 6:34:01 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/17/2020 5:54 PM:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:48:10 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?



Would have to know the total number of installations and fires, and I don't know either, but it is going to be in the one or two percent range. An acceptable number would be 0.1% or less.

Tom

0.1%? How did you choose that? It's not that good on Schleicher Wankel
installations, like you and I fly. There are about 600 Wankel powered gliders, and
at least 4 fires I know of, which is about 0.6%.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

You have to calculate the odds on a per flight basis. With Schleicher motorgliders I would guess that to be something in the neighborhood of 1 in 100,000. And none of the fires that did occur did resulted in the loss of the glider.

The bottom line is we have a lot more operational experience with internal combustion motorgliders than with electric. The incidents I have seen with the FES are disturbing to me: I wouldn't fly one at this point, but I am open to being presented with more data on the issue in the future. I had one FES owner explicitly say to me that he is disturbed by its poor reliability, but is willing to trust his emergency parachute!

Tom