East River turning radius

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a
duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a really
dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn around a
Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius.

I wonder if a low time pilot like this one, at what, about 80 hours, could be
taught to do this kind of turn in a Cirrus? Doubtful, I think, don't you?

I didn't even think of a duster turn. Perhaps that should become a new required
maneuver in the private pilot test? g

Or does that go in the classification of, "Hey, y'all, watch this!" /;-o))
--
Jim in NC

Maule Driver wrote:

That makes sense. What I was thinking of was, "what do you do to
request the a Class B clearance so you don't have to do the U-turn". Is
there a freq for self announcing and requesting clearances?

They are not one in the same. However, I have a hard time imagining
LaGuardia having the time to identify and clear an East River VFR
corridor-located aircraft into their class B airspace north of Roosevelt
Island, given how busy they are.

Considering the helicopter traffic on that side of the island, perhaps it
is possible but in my case during the many times I have been in along the
Hudson, my plan for getting out of the scenic corridors was to return to
the Hudson side, remain below class B and fly north back up the Hudson to
the Tappan Zee Bridge where the class B shelf rises. At that point I would
call NY approach for clearance into the class B. This seemed to me to be
the least stressful method for doing this.

I recall reading that there is also an option of calling Teterboro tower as
well, then turning west over New Jersey towards TEB, but I have never tried
that option.

--
Peter

wrote in message
...
Found this link:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html
(Some other interesting calculators there also)

I think the turing radius calculator is borked......

Try 80MPH at 89 degree bank angle....

Impressive piece of engineering if possible. Found this link:

The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank gives 8
ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds ridiculous
but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous . such a turn
if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that difficult.
radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle)
terry

Maule Driver wrote:

I'm wondering if the only thing that may keep the VFR corridor in place
is a desire on the part of ATC to keep all the sightseeing requests at bay.

You _can_ fly the corridor in the Bravo space with a clearance, and
enjoy positive separation, etc...

B A R R Y wrote:
Maule Driver wrote:

I'm wondering if the only thing that may keep the VFR corridor in
place is a desire on the part of ATC to keep all the sightseeing
requests at bay.

You _can_ fly the corridor in the Bravo space with a clearance, and
enjoy positive separation, etc...

Nope, if you're in the corridor VFR you neither have a clearance
nor positive separation. What you can do is ask to fly down the
river just above the corridor, inside the class B, which will
require the clearance and provide separation.

Ron Natalie wrote:

What you can do is ask to fly down the
river just above the corridor, inside the class B, which will
require the clearance and provide separation.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. G

You are correct that technically you're no longer in the "VFR corridor"
when you're in Bravo space, I didn't make that very clear.

Peter
What is a "duster turn"?
Peter Dohm wrote:
"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Neil Gould" wrote

Wow. You can do an Immelman in under 500'? Impressive!

How about a baby hammerhead turn, with a half roll coming out of it? g
--
Jim in NC

Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a
duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a really
dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn around a
Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius.

Peter

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a
duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a
really
dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn
around a
Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius.

I wonder if a low time pilot like this one, at what, about 80 hours, could
be
taught to do this kind of turn in a Cirrus? Doubtful, I think, don't you?

I didn't even think of a duster turn. Perhaps that should become a new
required
maneuver in the private pilot test? g

Or does that go in the classification of, "Hey, y'all, watch this!"
/;-o))
--
Jim in NC

What I did wasn't a true duster turn; I didn't turn out, then greater than
180, and then reverse again. What really happened (the first time I did it)
was that I probably had about 30 hours and was out in the practice area with
my instructor, who believed in tight patterns, for the purpose of horsing
the plane around to become accustomed to its handling characteristics. At
that time, the PA-38 was pretty new to both of us. By the time that he
requested that I turn the plane around over a field in the practice area,
within plus or minus 50 feet of altitude, it was apparent to me (from doing
2G circles and figure 8s around pilons) that the width of that field was
less than the plane's 2G turning diameter at 80 Kts. So, I throttled back,
lost about 25 feet, pulled up, rolled into the bank and around the turn,
leveled the wings, pulled out and brought the power back up. The maneuver
used about half of the altitude tolerance--and about half the width of the
field.

All in all, I would not put it in the category of "Hey, y'all, watch this!"
Instead, it is a precision method that allows a 1G turn with 60 a degree
bank at approach speed, and a resulting tight turning radius. Like any
precision work, it is a good idea to practice it first over a lot of flat
countryside--as we did.

Including steeper banks and some energy management manuevers in the private
pilot training would probably be a good idea.

I think that duster turns, as done by dusters, might be fun to watch--from
the ground. g

Peter
(Off line 'till tomorrow evening)

Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed?

To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster.
And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching up a turn
maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student with his flight
instructor flying into a building because he screwed up the turn. And
reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof. Since we're all
guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control surface --maybe a
bird?

Maule Driver wrote:
As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike - I thought low
time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side of the VFR
corridor having do the U-turn.

I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River just south of
the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on decided never to
fly the East River just because it's too tight and too filled with
traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily challenging when the
Hudson provides an equivalent experience.

I don't know how you properly train for that flight.... Few of us spend
much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below their tops. All
of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa. Most of us
will find it catches your breath the first time you do it at 800 feet in
a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low ceilings, some
wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the background. It's
pretty high excitement.

I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins - 500 feet above
valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at 155mph, 200 miles
from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days of flying
before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak, 5,000 feet above
the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff. Vice-a-versa for
western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in you head but it's
all quite real. We already have the knowledge and skills to do it. We
just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to settle down enough
to let the training take over.

Gary Drescher wrote:
Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning the turn
carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra margin in case you
have to dodge high-density traffic there.

Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a used Porsche on a
rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the west coast
while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands swamp.

No point here... just rambling.

Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed?

To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster.
And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching up a turn
maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student with his flight
instructor flying into a building because he screwed up the turn. And
reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof. Since we're all
guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control surface --maybe a
bird?

Maule Driver wrote:
As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike - I thought low
time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side of the VFR
corridor having do the U-turn.

I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River just south of
the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on decided never to
fly the East River just because it's too tight and too filled with
traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily challenging when the
Hudson provides an equivalent experience.

I don't know how you properly train for that flight.... Few of us spend
much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below their tops. All
of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa. Most of us
will find it catches your breath the first time you do it at 800 feet in
a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low ceilings, some
wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the background. It's
pretty high excitement.

I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins - 500 feet above
valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at 155mph, 200 miles
from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days of flying
before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak, 5,000 feet above
the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff. Vice-a-versa for
western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in you head but it's
all quite real. We already have the knowledge and skills to do it. We
just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to settle down enough
to let the training take over.

Gary Drescher wrote:
Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning the turn
carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra margin in case you
have to dodge high-density traffic there.

Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a used Porsche on a
rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the west coast
while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands swamp.

No point here... just rambling.