Outside reference in IMC

On May 21, 12:11*am, romeomike wrote:
wrote:

Could it have been a situation where you got authorization for
VFR-on-top to do some air work?

Of course in that case you would not have been just 50 feet above the
cloud layer

because you would have had to comply with VFR cloud clearances.

No, I wished at that time because I was whipped after that lesson! As
you suspected, it was airwork, but it was a local IFR clearance. This
was my second time in IMC, and before doing actual approaches in IMC
for the first time, he had me do some basic airwork in the practice
area. We had ask for a block altitude from 2000 to 4000 feet and he
had me do climbing turns and such. We topped out at about 2500 feet
or so, so he made me dip back down to 2000.

Needless to say, only one minute climbing turns. :-)

I love that trick he showed me about picking up local IFR clearances.
I call CD at my airport, and ask for local IFR clearance to do my IFR
currency. I don't file any flight plans to touch a cloud and no fuss
no muss. It always helps to have really good controllers willing to
work with me that we do have at KJAN as well, so the system really
does work.

Yup, ya cannot teach an old dog new tricks... It is still, and will
remain, a DG and an AH when it comes from me...

Definitions are easy... Dunno what all the fuss is about... Some of
you guys could make the act of taking a breath into a 20 page
thesis...
IMC is clearly defined in the regs... All you have to do is look at
the DUATS or whatever and it will tell you if the conditions are
IMC...
VMC is also clearly defined...
Any beginning flight student can rattle off the visibility and ceiling
conditions that constitute VMC, both for the airport traffic area and
for outside of there... If it ain't VMC, then it is IMC - period...

IFR time is logged when I am filed and on an instrument flight plan...
Whether I can or cannot see the horizon is meaningless...
If I am not filed on an instrument flight plan, then no IFR time is
logged, regardless of how much I use the DG and AH to keep it
upright...
And that is it...

denny

Marty Shapiro wrote:


VFR over the top (not to be confused with the IFR clearance of VFR on top).



Yeah, I know about VFR-on-top, but there you have to maintain VFR
clearance of clouds. In the scenario posed by Atlieb, he is cruising 50
feet above a cloud layer, so could not be legally VFR-on-top.

"Denny" wrote

IFR time is logged when I am filed and on an instrument flight plan...
Whether I can or cannot see the horizon is meaningless...

Here is what the FARs say:

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the
person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual
or simulated instrument flight conditions.

To me this means that technically you cannot log instrument time if you are
using outside references, regardless of the type of flight plan you are on.

BDS

On Wed, 21 May 2008 08:28:31 -0600, HARRY POTTER
wrote:

B A R R Y wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2008 20:30:20 -0400, "Bob F."
wrote:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint:
qualification
is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace where you could be
IMC and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight plan...where are they?

Class G space.

Thats what I always thought, until I saw an FAA enforcement letter where
they suspended a pilot for launching intoclass G without a clearance. IIRC,
he was sitting on the ground awaiting his release from ATC, got tired of
waiting, and just took off. No one along the line doubts he did indeed stay
inside uncontrolled airspace, but they still violated him.


Honestly, my area has very, very little G, usually only sfc-700 or
1200 stuff.

That is a strange enforcement, since all of us are taught that we only
need clearance before entering controlled space. Are you sure the
wasn't under the basic G minimums?

BDS writes:

Here is what the FARs say:

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the
person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual
or simulated instrument flight conditions.

To me this means that technically you cannot log instrument time if you are
using outside references, regardless of the type of flight plan you are on.

It also means that you cannot log instrument time if you are depending on
physical sensations. That would not be "solely by reference to instruments."

Cruising altitude requirements still apply, and I am not seeing where
any exemption is made for 2000' AGL. But it does seem like traffic
has to be only one-way in areas where class G only extends up to
1200'. This is a bit confusing, but perhaps a moot point.


On May 21, 3:43 am, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote :



On May 20, 9:11 pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
"Bob F." wrote
m:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint:
qualification is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace
where you could be IMC and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight
plan...where are they?

Glass G airspace. Lot's of it out west.

Even in class G you must still follow all the IFR rules, except you
don't need a ATC clearance.

All of them? Any FAR which states "when operating is controlled air space"
doesn't apply. That still leaves a few, but most of them are gone.

Communication with ATC? Not required in G.

Flight plan? Not required in G. No need to file or activate.

Altitude? Well, yes. But with no ATC communication requirement, you can
change it anytime you want. Unless I missed something in a quick scan,
91.179 doesn't address altitudes below 2,000' AGL and over a flat area,
such as a desert, you only need to be 1,000' AGL per 91.177. So, the rules
on altidude based on direction of flight does not necessarily apply. If
they did in G which only goes to 1,200' AGL, all IFR traffic there would be
one way.

Fuel on board? Well, I guess if you got ramped checked, you should have
statutory IFR reserves on departure, but since you're not required to have
a flight plan in G, what would be used to determine if you met IFR
reserves?

Malfunctions? No report required in G.

Instrument currency? Absolutely must have. No exceptions for class G!

SFAR 97 only applies to published routes, which are at least class E.

So, although it would be very stupid to do so, you can fly IFR in class G
airspace and not follow most of the IFR rules.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

writes:

Yep, I didn't get it either but in the full scheme of things, I wasn't
complaining, as at least I had an instructor who wasn't afraid of
touching a cloud.

Even a cloud with a 757 hiding inside?

Is a macho instructor better than a competent instructor? Is it bad to be
afraid of something that can get you killed?

"Mxsmanic" wrote

It also means that you cannot log instrument time if you are depending on
physical sensations. That would not be "solely by reference to
instruments."

Who here has ever claimed to fly in IMC while depending (your word) on
physical sensations?

BDS

HARRY POTTER wrote in
:

B A R R Y wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2008 20:30:20 -0400, "Bob F."
wrote:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint:
qualification
is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace where you could
be IMC and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight plan...where are
they?

Class G space.

Thats what I always thought, until I saw an FAA enforcement letter
where they suspended a pilot for launching intoclass G without a
clearance. IIRC, he was sitting on the ground awaiting his release
from ATC, got tired of waiting, and just took off. No one along the
line doubts he did indeed stay inside uncontrolled airspace, but they
still violated him.


§ 91.13 - Careless or reckless operation. The FAA's gotcha reg.