Question about TRSA - KPSP

The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

AIM 3-5-6, Sub Para C. Participation is Voluntary. VFR pilots are encouraged
to participate.
Sub Para A. There are no operating rules in 14CFR Part 91. The TRSA remains
a non-part 71 Airspace designation.

I see nothing on the VFR Sectional Chart or in the AF/D that mandates TRSA
service be used by the VFR pilot.

Both controllers need to get a grip.. was the VFR tower so busy (or inept)
that they could not accept a VFR arrival and sequence them into the parallel
runways?

My guess they are trying to keep the traffic count up for VFR services
provided to justify the TRSA designation.
BT

wrote in message
...
The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

Thanks for the reply, no the airport was fairly empty. The controller
gave me 1 heading and then told me to switch to tower who cleared me
straight in.



On May 19, 6:23*pm, "BT" wrote:
AIM 3-5-6, Sub Para C. Participation is Voluntary. VFR pilots are encouraged
to participate.
Sub Para A. There are no operating rules in 14CFR Part 91. The TRSA remains
a non-part 71 Airspace designation.

I see nothing on the VFR Sectional Chart or in the AF/D that mandates TRSA
service be used by the VFR pilot.

Both controllers need to get a grip.. was the VFR tower so busy (or inept)
that they could not accept a VFR arrival and sequence them into the parallel
runways?

My guess they are trying to keep the traffic count up for VFR services
provided to justify the TRSA designation.
BT

wrote in message

...



The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) *which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. *I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... *I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... *My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. *I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. *I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:
The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

You did nothing wrong.

However, that area is sometimes really busy and life is generally
easier if you go with the flow.

Also, FWIW, that area also seems to attract a lot of clueless people
that haven't talked to ATC since they passed their check ride which
puts most ATC in that area on a hair trigger.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...

Also, FWIW, that area also seems to attract a lot of clueless people
that haven't talked to ATC since they passed their check ride which
puts most ATC in that area on a hair trigger.


Seems it draws clueless controllers as well.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

wrote in message
...

Also, FWIW, that area also seems to attract a lot of clueless people
that haven't talked to ATC since they passed their check ride which
puts most ATC in that area on a hair trigger.


Seems it draws clueless controllers as well.

In all fairness, I don't know how many times I've been in the area
and heard something like:

"Bonanza 1A, state intentions."

"Well, me an the missus is gonna spend a couple of weeks here on vacation
from our spread just outside Porkbutt."

"We wuz gonna bring our daughter Emmy-Lou, but her asthema was act'n up."

"Bonanza 1A, where are you going?"

"Why we got us a deal at this resort hotel, suite and everything.

"Bonanaza 1A, what airport are you going to."

"We're going to Palm Springs. Nice country you got out here.

"Bonanza 1A, you are heading away from Palm Springs and towards
Bermuda Dunes. Do a 180 to head for Palm Springs."

Honest to God, I am not making this up.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...

Also, FWIW, that area also seems to attract a lot of clueless people
that haven't talked to ATC since they passed their check ride which
puts most ATC in that area on a hair trigger.


Seems it draws clueless controllers as well.
I heard a controller going off on someone for no good reason over there
once. I was going to remind him what his job was but I fly through there all
the time.
Next time the controller freaks out ask him why. If its not a good reason
tell him he needs to be more professional. He wont do it again.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:39:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote in
:

The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

What was on the KPSP ATIS regarding arrivals?

Presumably the KPSP tower personnel have established VFR arrival
routes, and rely on Approach to hand off arriving aircraft at specific
reporting points. Why don't you give them a call (760–318–3820), and
have a little discussion with ATC about your experience and
expectations, and report back here with your findings?

From the information in the A/FD
http://naco.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_127_10APR2008.pdf it appears that SoCal
approach, not the TRSA, handles approaches, which doesn't make sense
unless the use the same radar.


In my experience with the KPSP TRSA, I have noticed what I would
characterize as unprofessional and inexperienced behavior among the
ATC personnel working it. They want to route you 20 miles out of your
way for no explainable reason; at times they fail to call conflicting
traffic, and generally behave as though they are rookie ATC students.
I recall one night departure from KPSP in particular. The TRSA
controller had me headed directly for 11,485-foot Mount San Gorgonio
in the pitch dark. I was aware that they had done the same thing with
a biz-jet some time in the past, and failed to turn it in time to
avert a CFIT mishap. Time was passing and still I was not vectored
through the Banning Pass. I called and canceled Stage III, and went
on my way.

Several times, while en route from Bermuda Dunes to John Wayne (KSNA),
I would head toward the ridge south of Mt. San Jacinto peak to
over-fly the March Class C to the west. The TRSA controllers seemed
uncomfortable with my route (possibly because of the possibility of a
downdraft east of the ridge), and would try to get me to thread the
often congested Banning Pass. I never approach a mountain ridge at a
right angle, and am always ready to turn away in the event of
encountering a lee downdraft, and if the wind had been significant,
I'd have chosen another route.

I do recall one time the TRSA radar was helpful though. It was night,
and I got a traffic call from ATC of an F-16 approaching from 6
O-clock. The controller suggested a new heading, and I complied just
in time to see two orange disks zoom past.

There was a period in the late '90s when the TRSA radar was out, and
the military provided radar coverage for the TRSA. The
professionalism of the controllers was noticeably improved, IMO.

I don't know what it is with the KPSP TRSA personnel, but I suspect
the FAA uses the TRSA to train controllers for Class C and B areas, so
they're a bit green. Just remain in command of your flight, and use
them as a tool, or tell 'em "negative stage III."



I'm not sure if this is the mishap to which I referred above:

http://members.aol.com/jaydeebee1/crash70s.html
• 1977 •

Date / Time: Thursday, January 6, 1977 / 5:00 p.m.
Operator / Flight No.: Jet Avia charter service / Private Charter
Location: Mt. San Gorgonio, San Bernardino County, Calif.

Details and Probable Cause: Natalie “Dolly” Sinatra, the
82-year-old mother of entertainer Frank Sinatra, was aboard a
chartered private Gates Learjet 24B (N12MK) that departed Palm
Springs Municipal Airport for Las Vegas, Nevada, in adverse
weather conditions.

Instead of making a prescribed turn to the right following takeoff
at 4:55 p.m., the jet continued on its original course and,
approximately five minutes after departure, crashed at 9,700 feet
into the cloud-and-snow-covered slope of the 11,502-foot-high San
Gorgonio Mountain.

Killed in the crash were Mrs. Sinatra; Mrs. Anna Carbone, 67, a
friend Mrs. Sinatra had invited along for the trip; and the
aircraft’s pilot and co-pilot.

The flight crew erred in that they misinterpreted a clearance
issued by the Palm Springs departure control and subsequent air
traffic control instructions.

The wreckage was spotted from the air by searchers on the morning
of January 9. The bodies of the four victims were recovered from
the remote, mountainous crash site on January 10.

The two women were flying to Las Vegas to attend Frank Sinatra’s
opening night performance at Caesars Palace Hotel & Casino.

Fatalities: 4

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=55869&key=0

Thanks for all your info. Here is an update, I did call the KPSP
control tower and talked to the manager. He was very nice and
appolgetic about the controllers attitude. He took the info about my
tail number and time of incident and he is going to initiate an
investigation about the poor handling. He stated that a controller
should never talk or act in that way even if you violated a TFR or
FAR. As for the procedures as Larry stated above that when talking to
the tower next time that I should cancel Stage III right away and then
they will handle my landing. He said that they take this stuff VERY
seriously and that they really need us GA guys and gals to keep
flying. I will let you know the outcome. Thanks...


On May 20, 8:25*am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:39:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote in
:

The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) *which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. *I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... *I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... *My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. *I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. *I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

What was on the KPSP ATIS regarding arrivals?

Presumably the KPSP tower personnel have established VFR arrival
routes, and rely on Approach to hand off arriving aircraft at specific
reporting points. *Why don't you give them a call (760–318–3820), and
have a little discussion with ATC about your experience and
expectations, and report back here with your findings?

From the information in the A/FD
http://naco.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_127_10APR2008.pdf it appears that SoCal
approach, not the TRSA, handles approaches, which doesn't make sense
unless the use the same radar.

In my experience with the KPSP TRSA, I have noticed what I would
characterize as unprofessional and inexperienced behavior among the
ATC personnel working it. *They want to route you 20 miles out of your
way for no explainable reason; at times they fail to call conflicting
traffic, and generally behave as though they are rookie ATC students.
I recall one night departure from KPSP in particular. *The TRSA
controller had me headed directly for 11,485-foot Mount San Gorgonio
in the pitch dark. *I was aware that they had done the same thing with
a biz-jet some time in the past, and failed to turn it in time to
avert a CFIT mishap. *Time was passing and still I was not vectored
through the Banning Pass. *I called and canceled Stage III, and went
on my way. *

Several times, while en route from Bermuda Dunes to John Wayne (KSNA),
I would head toward the ridge south of Mt. San Jacinto peak to
over-fly the March Class C to the west. *The TRSA controllers seemed
uncomfortable with my route (possibly because of the possibility of a
downdraft east of the ridge), and would try to get me to thread the
often congested Banning Pass. *I never approach a mountain ridge at a
right angle, and am always ready to turn away in the event of
encountering a lee downdraft, and if the wind had been significant,
I'd have chosen another route.

I do recall one time the TRSA radar was helpful though. *It was night,
and I got a traffic call from ATC of an F-16 approaching from 6
O-clock. *The controller suggested a new heading, and I complied just
in time to see two orange disks zoom past.

There was a period in the late '90s when the TRSA radar was out, and
the military provided radar coverage for the TRSA. *The
professionalism of the controllers was noticeably improved, IMO.

I don't know what it is with the KPSP TRSA personnel, but I suspect
the FAA uses the TRSA to train controllers for Class C and B areas, so
they're a bit green. *Just remain in command of your flight, and use
them as a tool, or tell 'em "negative stage III." *

I'm not sure if this is the mishap to which I referred above:

* *http://members.aol.com/jaydeebee1/crash70s.html
* * • 1977 •

* * Date / Time: Thursday, January 6, 1977 / 5:00 p.m.
* * Operator / Flight No.: Jet Avia charter service / Private Charter
* * Location: Mt. San Gorgonio, San Bernardino County, Calif.

* * Details and Probable Cause: * Natalie “Dolly” Sinatra, the
* * 82-year-old mother of entertainer Frank Sinatra, was aboard a
* * chartered private Gates Learjet 24B (N12MK) that departed Palm
* * Springs Municipal Airport for Las Vegas, Nevada, in adverse
* * weather conditions.

* * Instead of making a prescribed turn to the right following takeoff
* * at 4:55 p.m., the jet continued on its original course and,
* * approximately five minutes after departure, crashed at 9,700 feet
* * into the cloud-and-snow-covered slope of the 11,502-foot-high San
* * Gorgonio Mountain.

* * Killed in the crash were Mrs. Sinatra; Mrs. Anna Carbone, 67, a
* * friend Mrs. Sinatra had invited along for the trip; and the
* * aircraft’s pilot and co-pilot.

* * The flight crew erred in that they misinterpreted a clearance
* * issued by the Palm Springs departure control and subsequent air
* * traffic control instructions.

* * The wreckage was spotted from the air by searchers on the morning
* * of January 9. * The bodies of the four victims were recovered from
* * the remote, mountainous crash site on January 10.

* * The two women were flying to Las Vegas to attend Frank Sinatra’s
* * opening night performance at Caesars Palace Hotel & Casino.

* * Fatalities: 4

* *http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=55869&key=0

wrote in message
...

Thanks for all your info. Here is an update, I did call the KPSP
control tower and talked to the manager. He was very nice and
appolgetic about the controllers attitude. He took the info about my
tail number and time of incident and he is going to initiate an
investigation about the poor handling. He stated that a controller
should never talk or act in that way even if you violated a TFR or
FAR. As for the procedures as Larry stated above that when talking to
the tower next time that I should cancel Stage III right away and then
they will handle my landing. He said that they take this stuff VERY
seriously and that they really need us GA guys and gals to keep
flying. I will let you know the outcome. Thanks...


There is no Stage II to cancel. Hasn't been for about twenty years now.


On May 20, 8:25 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:39:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote in
:

The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

What was on the KPSP ATIS regarding arrivals?

Presumably the KPSP tower personnel have established VFR arrival
routes, and rely on Approach to hand off arriving aircraft at specific
reporting points. Why don't you give them a call (760–318–3820), and
have a little discussion with ATC about your experience and
expectations, and report back here with your findings?

From the information in the A/FD
http://naco.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_127_10APR2008.pdf it appears that SoCal
approach, not the TRSA, handles approaches, which doesn't make sense
unless the use the same radar.

In my experience with the KPSP TRSA, I have noticed what I would
characterize as unprofessional and inexperienced behavior among the
ATC personnel working it. They want to route you 20 miles out of your
way for no explainable reason; at times they fail to call conflicting
traffic, and generally behave as though they are rookie ATC students.
I recall one night departure from KPSP in particular. The TRSA
controller had me headed directly for 11,485-foot Mount San Gorgonio
in the pitch dark. I was aware that they had done the same thing with
a biz-jet some time in the past, and failed to turn it in time to
avert a CFIT mishap. Time was passing and still I was not vectored
through the Banning Pass. I called and canceled Stage III, and went
on my way.

Several times, while en route from Bermuda Dunes to John Wayne (KSNA),
I would head toward the ridge south of Mt. San Jacinto peak to
over-fly the March Class C to the west. The TRSA controllers seemed
uncomfortable with my route (possibly because of the possibility of a
downdraft east of the ridge), and would try to get me to thread the
often congested Banning Pass. I never approach a mountain ridge at a
right angle, and am always ready to turn away in the event of
encountering a lee downdraft, and if the wind had been significant,
I'd have chosen another route.

I do recall one time the TRSA radar was helpful though. It was night,
and I got a traffic call from ATC of an F-16 approaching from 6
O-clock. The controller suggested a new heading, and I complied just
in time to see two orange disks zoom past.

There was a period in the late '90s when the TRSA radar was out, and
the military provided radar coverage for the TRSA. The
professionalism of the controllers was noticeably improved, IMO.

I don't know what it is with the KPSP TRSA personnel, but I suspect
the FAA uses the TRSA to train controllers for Class C and B areas, so
they're a bit green. Just remain in command of your flight, and use
them as a tool, or tell 'em "negative stage III."

I'm not sure if this is the mishap to which I referred above:

http://members.aol.com/jaydeebee1/crash70s.html
• 1977 •

Date / Time: Thursday, January 6, 1977 / 5:00 p.m.
Operator / Flight No.: Jet Avia charter service / Private Charter
Location: Mt. San Gorgonio, San Bernardino County, Calif.

Details and Probable Cause: Natalie “Dolly” Sinatra, the
82-year-old mother of entertainer Frank Sinatra, was aboard a
chartered private Gates Learjet 24B (N12MK) that departed Palm
Springs Municipal Airport for Las Vegas, Nevada, in adverse
weather conditions.

Instead of making a prescribed turn to the right following takeoff
at 4:55 p.m., the jet continued on its original course and,
approximately five minutes after departure, crashed at 9,700 feet
into the cloud-and-snow-covered slope of the 11,502-foot-high San
Gorgonio Mountain.

Killed in the crash were Mrs. Sinatra; Mrs. Anna Carbone, 67, a
friend Mrs. Sinatra had invited along for the trip; and the
aircraft’s pilot and co-pilot.

The flight crew erred in that they misinterpreted a clearance
issued by the Palm Springs departure control and subsequent air
traffic control instructions.

The wreckage was spotted from the air by searchers on the morning
of January 9. The bodies of the four victims were recovered from
the remote, mountainous crash site on January 10.

The two women were flying to Las Vegas to attend Frank Sinatra’s
opening night performance at Caesars Palace Hotel & Casino.

Fatalities: 4

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=55869&key=0