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"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 28th 05, 10:07 PM
Happy Dog
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wrote in message
ups.com...
Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'
A 20-year-old from Springfield who had hoped to swim in the Olympics
was flying a single-engine plane to his college in Wisconsin late
Monday night when he ran out of fuel over Lake Michigan.
at http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20050...5912-7691r.htm


Bad day. Assuming bad planning, idiotic, of course. I often take the risk
of needing to rely on the plane to keep flying for about 5 minutes when
crossing cold water if I've already been in cruise for awhile. The odds of
the engine quitting in that five minutes of an hour plus long flight are
pretty slim and I'm OK with them. On trips across Lake Ontario in the cold
season, I take the extra time to stay within glide distance of shore.
Knowing you are almost 100% dead five or ten minutes before you lose
consciousness, and while you still have a few minutes to talk to people, is
*such* a lousy way to go. Barring ditching next to a ship (a real
possibility) there is little hope if you're more than a hundred metres from
shore. And, for many, even that's pushing it. I used to go to a private
school where we'd run a few miles and then swim about a hundred feet in a
Northern Ontario lake right up until Xmas break. In +4 degree water, even a
hundred feet wears you right down. I really feel for his survivors
(although their religious reasoning on the affair escapes me).

m


  #32  
Old April 28th 05, 10:31 PM
Larry Dighera
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On 28 Apr 2005 12:08:01 -0700, "Peter R."
wrote in . com::

Larry wrote:

A difference? It points out that erroneous conclusions are possible,
and that speculation as to the cause of aircraft mishaps is risky.


What's the risk of speculating the cause of an accident in a Usenet
discussion group? If one makes an ass out of one self, a simple change
of the moniker wipes the slate clean.


That's why I have considerably more respect for those Usenet posters
who provide accurate personal identification information, and shun
those who post anonymously through a mail-to-news gateway.
Accountability fosters respect.

Seriously, though, you know that past NTSB statistics are slanted
towards the scenario of a pilot failing to ensure adequete fuel before
a flight.


No. I didn't know that. Are you able to cite any evidence of that
sort of NTSB bias?

I know the NTSB has found the cause of a military-civil MAC to be the
fault of the glider pilot who had the right-of-way at the time, so
it's possible.*

Additionally, the fact that the pilot told ATC he was out
of fuel is illuminating (source: LiveATC's archive of the one-sided
transmissions).


How is that illuminating?

How would an inexperienced, solo pilot flying at night
correctly and quickly diagnose a fuel leak while still in the descent?


If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would
indicate fuel leaking via one route or another.




* http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1
NTSB Identification: LAX86MA186A. The docket is stored on NTSB
microfiche number 31421.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, April 20, 1986 in WARNER SPRINGS, CA
Aircraft: LTV AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES A7E, registration: USN
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

A ROLLADEN-SCHNEIDER LS-4 GLIDER AND AN LTV A7E JET COLLIDED OVER HOT
SPRINGS MTN, NEAR WARNER SPRINGS, CA. THE A7E WAS ATTEMPTING A RAPID
PULL UP AND THE GLIDER WAS ATTEMPTING A NOSE DOWN, 30 DEG RIGHT TURN
WHEN THEY COLLIDED. BOTH AIRCRAFT WERE OPERATING UNDER VISUAL FLT
RULES AND LANDED WITHOUT FURTHER INCIDENT. NEITHER PILOT WAS INJURED.
THE GLIDER LEFT WING OUTBD 3 FT SECTION WAS SEVERED. THE A7E NOSE
COWLING WAS SUBSTANTIALLY DAMAGED AND THE ENGINE INGESTED EXTENSIVE
FIBERGLASS MATERIAL. THE COLLISION OCCURRED AS THE A7E WAS EXECUTING A
SOUTHBOUND TURN ON VR 1257 AND WAS WITHIN THE ROUTE WIDTH (4 NM); THE
GLIDER WAS ATTEMPTING TO GAIN LIFT ON THE WEST SIDE OF HOT SPRINGS MTN
AND WAS WITHIN VR 1257 ROUTE STRUCTURE. THE A7E PLT HAD INFORMED THE
NECESSARY FLT SERV STATIONS THAT THE ROUTE WAS ACTIVE; THE GLIDER PLT
HAD NOT CONTACTED THE FLT SERV STATIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE ROUTE WAS
ACTIVE.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:
PREFLIGHT PLANNING/PREPARATION..IMPROPER..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
IN-FLIGHT PLANNING/DECISION..IMPROPER..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
CHECKLIST..POOR..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT


Contributing Factors

TERRAIN CONDITION..MOUNTAINOUS/HILLY

Index for Apr1986 | Index of months

  #33  
Old April 28th 05, 10:36 PM
Nathan Young
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On 28 Apr 2005 13:28:31 -0700, "Paul kgyy"
wrote:

The water temperature in Lake Michigan is still in the 40s. Lights,
flotation gear, all useless except to help them find your frozen body
unless your flotation device is a raft with a cover.

When I fly east IFR out of Gary airport, ATC usually sends me out 040,
which puts me about 10 miles off shore while still climbing. I always
hope that if a problem develops I'll have time to head for shore.


Yikes, that is not a good vector. They won't give you vectors towards
Knox? I would think you would be below most of the ORD and MDW
arrival traffic.
  #34  
Old April 28th 05, 11:10 PM
Jose
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If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would
indicate fuel leaking via one route or another.


Or incorrect leaning, whether pilot error or malfunction.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #35  
Old April 28th 05, 11:15 PM
Jose
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You obviously have never worked within the
Fire/Police/Rescue/Ambulance system. Just because the call taker is
asking these questions, does not mean that help is not already on the
way.


No, I have never worked in that system, or any rescue system for that
matter. Thanks for the info.

What I would have hoped to hear (sitting in my comfortable chair after
considering this on Usenet for a while) are suggestions to grab a
flashlight, or otherwise how to mark the area for search and rescue.
Granted there probably wasn't enough time, as the plane was already
filling with water...

I have read that one can survive being underwater for hours if the water
is cold enough. Perhaps he could have been saved even if things looked
bleak.

I wonder how high he was flying - mild hypoxia from being at 10,500 feet
crossing the lake (for maximum gliding range during the crossing) might
easily impair one's judgement at a critical time, including the time
leading up to the event, (perhaps preventing him from making appropriate
radio calls earlier)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #36  
Old April 28th 05, 11:29 PM
Larry Dighera
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:18:46 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote in
::

Him surviving was a function of time; he could swim.


Here's a similar but happier story of Cathy Maready's ordeal:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...4/Survival.htm
http://gosport.pensacolanewsjournal....0B5983A5.shtml
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...9/ai_115842813

And another in significantly warmer water:
http://www.equipped.com/1199ditch.htm
  #37  
Old April 29th 05, 12:02 AM
kontiki
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I'm sure his family will now sue Piper Aircraft.... and the owner
of the FBO he rented it from, etc. etc. Same old story.

  #38  
Old April 29th 05, 12:22 AM
gatt
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"Skywise" wrote in message

Reporters are soooooooooooooo stupid.


Careful with the generalizations. Many people say the same thing about
people who fly small airplanes or "jump from perfectly good aircraft."

-c
"If aircraft were perfect, there wouldn't be parachutes."


  #39  
Old April 29th 05, 12:59 AM
Skywise
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"gatt" wrote in
:


"Skywise" wrote in message

Reporters are soooooooooooooo stupid.


Careful with the generalizations. Many people say the same thing about
people who fly small airplanes or "jump from perfectly good aircraft."

-c
"If aircraft were perfect, there wouldn't be parachutes."


I can count on one hand the number of reporters I see regularly
that actually seem to know what they are reporting about. If
I think real hard I might need my second hand.

But I won't get into a debate over it here, so this is my final
say on the subject.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
  #40  
Old April 29th 05, 03:27 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

What I find disappointing is the late pilot's lack of authoritative
attitude while exercising the duties of Pilot In Command. He called
ATC and confessed his dwindling fuel state only minutes before
ditching. He asked ATC if he should exit the aircraft while it was
sinking. It was as though he was praying instead of thinking.

Why didn't he _TELL_ ATC what he needed, and _request_ that ATC
contact the Coast Guard and despatch a helo to his location? Why
didn't he take _command_ of his situation?


Because he was clueless.


 




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