A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Ventus 3F - Fatal



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old July 21st 18, 08:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
MNLou
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 271
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

From the report "the glider entered a left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued to ground impact."

If the spiral continued at 48 kts until impact, that is one scenario.

If the spiral continued but the IAS increased, that would be an entirely different scenario.

I wish the NTSB had been more clear on that wording.

Lou
  #42  
Old July 22nd 18, 05:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

Listening to ourselves and knowing our limitations ought to be a topic covered more often in Soaring magazine. Age will no doubt be a factor in a growing percentage of accidents as the glider pilot population continues to age.. Likewise, hydration and heat stroke should be topics of concern for everyone flying mid-summer.

R6N flew 4 days straight in 90+ degree weather. We took the 5th day off partly for SAFETY. In hindsight, I have no regrets despite taking off what clearly turned out to be the best soaring day of the contest (the sky looked like Uvalde), which says a lot when you're flying out of Adrian, Michigan.

Fwiw, Sandhill Soaring Club lost a club member just 2 weeks prior to the start of R6N. The deceased member's wife is certain her husband succumbed to heat and died of heart complications. Luckily, he wasn't operating an aircraft when it happened.

In any case, ALL pilots (not just aging pilots), need to consider their health history, known physiological limitations, their present physical and mental health, stress levels, medications, and lastly the current weather conditions at the airport.

The following article speaks volumes on the issue and identifies factors that increase risk of heat stroke and/or heart failure. See: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...n-201107223180

Safe soaring!

Chris Schrader (CN)



On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:15:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:

We are all getting older. There have been a number of physiological
incapacitation accidents in recent years in our community. Let's
wait for the NTSB to make their findings.

In the mean time, condolences to his family and friends.

RO


  #43  
Old July 22nd 18, 07:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:48:24 AM UTC+2, wrote:
Listening to ourselves and knowing our limitations ought to be a topic covered more often in Soaring magazine. Age will no doubt be a factor in a growing percentage of accidents as the glider pilot population continues to age. Likewise, hydration and heat stroke should be topics of concern for everyone flying mid-summer.

R6N flew 4 days straight in 90+ degree weather. We took the 5th day off partly for SAFETY. In hindsight, I have no regrets despite taking off what clearly turned out to be the best soaring day of the contest (the sky looked like Uvalde), which says a lot when you're flying out of Adrian, Michigan.

Fwiw, Sandhill Soaring Club lost a club member just 2 weeks prior to the start of R6N. The deceased member's wife is certain her husband succumbed to heat and died of heart complications. Luckily, he wasn't operating an aircraft when it happened.

In any case, ALL pilots (not just aging pilots), need to consider their health history, known physiological limitations, their present physical and mental health, stress levels, medications, and lastly the current weather conditions at the airport.

The following article speaks volumes on the issue and identifies factors that increase risk of heat stroke and/or heart failure. See: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...n-201107223180

Safe soaring!

Chris Schrader (CN)



On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:15:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:

We are all getting older. There have been a number of physiological
incapacitation accidents in recent years in our community. Let's
wait for the NTSB to make their findings.

In the mean time, condolences to his family and friends.

RO


+1!!
  #44  
Old July 23rd 18, 07:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

On 21/07/2018 01:23, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
National Transportation Safety Board
Aviation Accident Preliminary Report

The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
to ground impact.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...atorFile.ashx?
EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA


A turn with 48 knots airspeed implies thermalling. 11 seconds prior to
impact is not time enough to complete a single turn. The aircraft must
have been very low at that 11 second point. There are lots of unanswered
questions.

The earlier part of the trace will show how high the glider was before
impact and what phase of flight it was in, ie in circuit or low on final
glide.

There is no report on wind or turbulence. One assumes it was not a
contributing factor.

It is very sad to loose another pilot. Especially a very experienced one
in a brand new glider design. Strength to all those who knew him and to
the factory too.
  #45  
Old July 23rd 18, 06:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 394
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

Dehydration?
I remember an accident where I saw the aircraft thermalling so low, he was casting a shadow. He caught a wing shortly thereafter................pilot doesn't remember anything after breakfast. He was severely dehydrated!
Tried Mio lemonade this year, just a squirt in a cold water bottle makes all the difference in the world. Drank 3 bottles before takeoff. If your not peeing in flight, your dehydrated and it can be a killer! I got my LS-6 from a salvage after the pilot landed in 8 foot high corn, within sight of the airport! Pilot wasn't drinking any water and had become severely dehydrated!
Condolences,
JJ
  #46  
Old July 24th 18, 06:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 236
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 10:19:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:30:07 PM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
National Transportation Safety Board
Aviation Accident Preliminary Report

The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
to ground impact.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...atorFile.ashx?
EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
.


Doesn't really sound like a stall/spin from low altitude. Sounds more like the behavior of a glider trimmed for an off-field landing with no one at the controls.


WB: In what way does it not sound like stall/spin? Secondly, what do you mean about trimmed for an off-field landing? I've never heard about trimming differently for an on-field landing vs an off-field landing?
Separate remark: Flarm does not record airspeed as stated in the report.. It could be that airspeed was inferred from the spiral descent dynamics; but that seems more complicated than suggested by the brevity of this preliminary report.


11 seconds just seems like a very long time to be in a spin or spiral dive. 11 seconds suggests adequate altitude and enough time for an unimpaired pilot to recognize the problem and perform a recovery. I am under the impression that most stall/spins to impact start below 200 feet and usually the glider only makes a partial rotation before impact. Just guessing, but wouldn't a spiral dive of 11 seconds duration involve shedding parts before impact?

Regarding trimming for an off field landing: If one is landing in a smaller than usual space, one might trim the glider to fly at the minimum safe approach speed. In my 301 Libelle, I trim for the pattern speed that I want, usually about +-60 knots depending on wind, and slow up on final. If I am landing in a tight field, I might trim down around +-50 knots if it's calm. In my 20, the trim is left to float and the glider trims out based on flap setting (until one gets to the "jeezus!" notch). I've never flown a Ventus of any flavor, and don't know if the Ventus drivers typically even bother to set trim or let it float. As someone else pointed out, 48 knots is also a plausible thermalling speed.

Answering the "separate remark" question: My first thought was that the NTSB report was sloppily written when it stated "airspeed" since the PFlarm wouldn't know airspeed. However, I read that PFlarm will record airspeed if it is being fed that information from another instrument like a modern complex vario. So maybe the NTSB did get airspeed.

It is just terribly frustrating that we keep losing skilled and experienced people to these puzzling crashes. Scares the crap out of me to be honest.

Please fly safely.



  #47  
Old July 24th 18, 09:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.

Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.
  #48  
Old July 24th 18, 03:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:23:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.

Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.


Alarm doesn't record airspeed, but some flight computers do. I know the LXNav records airspeed, flap position ...etc. perhaps this brand new glider had a modern flight computer?
  #49  
Old July 24th 18, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

That's a different story, and I would not be at all surprised if that were the case.
  #50  
Old July 24th 18, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Hirashima
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Ventus 3F - Fatal

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:27:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
That's a different story, and I would not be at all surprised if that were the case.


Yes, my LXNav 9050 records airspeed in the IGC file.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fatal this afternoon Gene Seibel Piloting 6 March 7th 07 10:22 PM
1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p? Montblack Piloting 81 February 12th 06 09:54 AM
1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p? Montblack Home Built 99 February 12th 06 09:54 AM
1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p? Montblack Piloting 38 February 9th 06 03:00 PM
Fatal at Omarama Philip Plane Soaring 0 January 12th 05 08:52 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.