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Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20



 
 
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  #61  
Old May 13th 20, 07:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."

Once again, put up or....

I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.


Some people are impervious to the obvious.
  #62  
Old May 13th 20, 08:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Tue, 12 May 2020 17:41:24 -0700, agcatflyr wrote:

We simulate rope breaks, have you ever covered an airspeed
and had to fly a tow-release-landing without?

Aero tow, no. Winch, yes: three times. First was pre-solo in an ASK-21
and an ASI cover was used, so the whole launch was flown without an ASI
for the student. Part of the BGA syllabus. Isn't that part of US solo
qualification and if not, why not?

The other two were ASI failures after launch. Both of these were in a
Puchacz. First was shortly after release. By then we'd just found a nice
thermal so we decided it would be rude it not use it, went away over big
open space, did a stall or two as reminder of noises etc, came back and
landed without incident. Second was halfway up the launch: pulled the
bung, flew abbreviated pattern and landed. No huhu.


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Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #63  
Old May 13th 20, 12:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 07:08:22 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."

Once again, put up or....

I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.


Some people are impervious to the obvious.


- which is that you aren't the first genius in this picture. Others with more than your lukewarm and retractable commitment have looked at this before, including trial devices.


The first such incident I heard of was a couple years before I started flying, and it's happened to two others I had briefly met, so there's always been an interest in this.





  #64  
Old May 13th 20, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20


Things we don't teach to beginning glider pilots:

1. Don't kill the towpilot – Release immediately if you lose sight of the towplane or have any control problems.


Careful, that 'don't kill the tow pilot' lesson can put tow pilots at risk.


In my primary training, release if you loose site was taught, but the reasoning was about collision and not tying a bow around something.

Kiting is not obvious until you know about it.
Training needs to talk through that reasoning behind the rule.

This includes both the possibility of overwhelming the tow's elevator authority and for CG pilots, the glider's.

  #65  
Old May 13th 20, 03:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

..... Okay, well, actually that sounds like a simple, workable
solution. We use it on the flap handle when thermalling; a reminder to go
neutral or negative when leaving the lift. Any simple ideas to keep us from
stall/spinning in?


Sincere condolences to everyone directly affected by this - (apparently) yet
another, entirely - avoidable soaring fatality. It - and peppered throughout
this thread's preceding comments - contains serious food for thought, and -
ideally - altered awarenesses/thought-processes/reactions for every pilot
genuinely interested in improving their flight skills. And so, continuing in
this particular philosophic vein...

It's one thing to kill another fellow soaring pilot and have to live with the
consequences. Is there a living pilot who "wishes to go there"?

It's another thing to kill yourSELF...which (in my view) stall/spin accidents
arguably are - 100%. Internalizing this particular worldview is - was for me
anyway - the "simple idea" Most Useful to "keep us [me] from stall/spinning
in". Avoiding "going there" was/is one of those "simple ideas" Seriously
Helpful to remaining among the living for as long as my internal biology
ordains. The altered awareness goes beyond every possible training exposure
(which IMHO can be improved - raise your hands if your instruction didn't
expose you to [say] opening your 2-seater's canopy in flight before trading
off controls with your instructor). It's a life philosophy, not "mere training."

Specifically - accompanying *EVERY* landing approach (and, "low thermalling
situation" undertaken) was the actively-considered simple-idea that if I
sufficiently screwed things up, I was going to soon be irrevocably dead. I
found it focused my attention, if nothing else!

Having through the years put forth this idea numerous times over RAS, I've
encountered various misguided/mistaken interpretations of what the above
assertions are trying to convey. So be it. I'll be leaving now, my work here
is done!

:-)

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #66  
Old May 13th 20, 04:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

Dashcam video of this tragic accident
This is out on the internet now

https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6

Nick
T

  #67  
Old May 13th 20, 07:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:29:37 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:14:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.


Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?

Put up or....


Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!

Tom


And therein lies the problem. A million for development, certification, and production is probably on the light side. With a worldwide lifetime market of maybe 200 units, if you achieve 20% market penetration. $5000 each would recover only costs. One false positive release resulting in an accident could wipe out the entire budget easily. Ain't going to happen.
  #68  
Old May 13th 20, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 11:05:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.

Ramy


Ramy, what model glider was involved? I assume side opening canopy.
  #69  
Old May 13th 20, 11:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:05:32 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
Just my .02 cents,
JJ


What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release. Professional airline pilots which have two pilots in the cockpit with electronic checklists still screw up. If that's the solution I guarantee that towplane upsets will continue to happen.

The tow pilot is in a very vulnerable situation: he/she is totally dependent upon the correct performance of the glider pilot. One towplane upset accident is one too many.

Tom


We could also built a "magnetron super flux hyperlink wormhole connector thingy" and go back in time to retrofit your invention to every tow/kite mishap there by making kiting a non-event. What part of this solution don't you understand?
  #70  
Old May 13th 20, 11:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:05:05 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:29:37 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:14:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.

Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?

Put up or....


Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!

Tom


And therein lies the problem. A million for development, certification, and production is probably on the light side. With a worldwide lifetime market of maybe 200 units, if you achieve 20% market penetration. $5000 each would recover only costs. One false positive release resulting in an accident could wipe out the entire budget easily. Ain't going to happen.


Yeah, and these guys thought I was joking! The only way this can happen is if the engineering labor is donated. I am retired and can contribute, but I am not even close to a towplane. A lot of flight testing, some of it dangerous because it involves actual towplane upsets (albeit at altitude), would have to be done.

On the positive side, the cost of manufacturing such a unit would not be high, less than $500.

Tom
 




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