Co-pilot gets sick, stewardess helps land airplane

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 05:01:37 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques
wrote:

On Jun 20, 4:30*am, Wingnut wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:11:10 -0700, Dudley Henriques wrote:
All this is just a fancy way of saying that prior experience in a Cessna
150 might not matter in a 767

Who said anything about a Cessna? The original post said she had
experience as a *commercial* pilot. That tends to mean something a bit
bigger than just a personal aircraft.

I believe the lady herself said during a TV interview that her
experience was restricted to light aircraft. The type "Cessna" was
mentioned.

Cessna makes or made (I don't recall the current structure of the
personal aircraft inudstry) some heavier aircraft than the 150s I
used to fly. Including some Jets (the Citation line).

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 19:26:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 20, 7:30*pm, Hatunen wrote:

See the reasons I cited above. Among other things, an average
passenger sitting in the left or right seat would probably go
into shock at the mere sight of an airline instrument panel. Some
one with a commercial license, would immediately look for the
instruments familiar to him or her.

Not sure if you realize MX is a MSFS simmer, has never flown a real
plane, not a CGI, and no real world experience inside a real plane.
He just misrepresents himself as a pilot.

I'm quite familiar with Mixie. From time to time I get fed up and
killfile him, but it's usually set to expred after thirty days of
no kills, and he seems to have gone away for that long this time.

He doesn't understand the real world as you describe above. Your last
sentence is the key. Somebody with piloting experience would know
what the altimeter would look like in the myriad of instruments
presented in front of him or a DG for directional awareness. A non
pilot may not be so quick to identify it. Put in glass cockpit in the
mix, and you would have me lost trying to interpret the information
being presented. I simply can't imagine a non pilot trying to figure
it out especially with altitude and such.

While a heavy jet is a big sucker with a very complex panel
(although lighter aircraft are now sporting some pretty
compicated-looking electronci panels now) the principals are
basic for any one who has flown a plane for even a short time:
keep it level except coordinated turns. To land glide down to
near stall speed, flare at the runway apron and make it stall
just as the wheels tough the runway.

Of course, that last part takes some real practice (I failed my
first flight test on the emergency landing). I don't know if
modern airliners can, as they say, land themselves, or at least
if they all can. I m pretty sure that if the plane is set up to
land itself it has to be at a runway set up for it.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen writes:

The lady in question has a commercial license, which implies more
experience than noodling around in a 152.

You can fly any sort of aircraft as a commercial pilot, and in particular, a
CPL does not necessarily imply any experience at all in large jet transport
aircraft. If you want to barnstorm across the country in a 152, for example,
you need a CPL.

At a minimum the lady would know pulling back on the yoke raises
the nose and and pushing forward makes for nose down. She would also
know that turning the yoke will not make the plane turn unless the pedals
are also used.

Presumably, but since she will absolutely not be touching these flight
controls, this knowledge is useless.

And, of course, she will know most of the lingo
and will know where to look when told to watch the air speed or
the artificial horizon.

There isn't a lot of lingo to know, but she might find it easier to locate the
attitude indicator on the PFD without it being described to her, and she might
find the airspeed without it being explained, although that depends largely on
her ingenuity--small aircraft twenty years ago did not have PFDs.

She will presumably know the difference
between mag north and true north and will have a pretty good idea
of which direction runway 120 points. She would know the purpose
of the flaps, the VOR, and so on. She will know how to read an
air chart.

All she is going to do is turn a few knobs or move a few levers, which anyone
can do, with or without a pilot's license.

Nonsense. While teh cockpit of a 747 is pretty complex, it still
contains the basic instruments of a twin-engine Beech.

Actually, apart from the compass, standby AI, and altimeter, there's almost
nothing in common. The cockpit does have a yoke, rudder pedals, and a couple
of throttles, but she needs to stay away from those.

I don't recall anyone here saying they could.

This isn't the only place where I discuss aviation. Anyway, the same pilots
who believe that a non-pilot would instantly crash any aircraft also tend to
believe that they can fly anything, even if they've never been in any aircraft
with more than two seats and a propeller.

Well, duh. That's not the question at hand.

Well, yes, it is. You can only stretch knowledge of one aircraft so far, then
you need to explicitly study other aircraft. Knowing how to drive a Ford
Escort does not teach you how to drive a tractor-trailer rig, even if they are
both road vehicles.

You've heard many people claim this? Who? And especially, who
here in this thread? As usual you're making up straw men.

As I've said, I discuss aviation in all sorts of venues, not just on USENET.

But this is a case where it would be especially helpful if the
person taking over the controls had, say, a commercial license,
for the reasons I cited above.

I've explained why those reasons would be mostly inapplicable.

Among other things, an average passenger sitting in the left or right
seat would probably go into shock at the mere sight of an airline
instrument panel.

Not so. In real-world emergency situations, people tend to be a lot calmer
than they are in Hollywood movies or in imagination. There are some who panic,
but many who don't. Natural selection doesn't favor people who panic easily.

Some one with a commercial license, would immediately look for the
instruments familiar to him or her.

And would become just as alarmed as the non-pilot upon realizing that
virtually nothing looks familiar.

Hatunen writes:

While a heavy jet is a big sucker with a very complex panel
(although lighter aircraft are now sporting some pretty
compicated-looking electronci panels now) the principals are
basic for any one who has flown a plane for even a short time:
keep it level except coordinated turns. To land glide down to
near stall speed, flare at the runway apron and make it stall
just as the wheels tough the runway.

In an emergency, a person who isn't a pilot certified for the aircraft in
question needs to use the automation, not take the controls manually. The
latter can easily lead to disaster.

The problem is that you need actual practice in an airplane in order to become
good at handling the controls, or you need to find an expensive, full-motion
simulator for the same purpose. Having experience in a vastly different
airplane won't help you much.

In contrast, anyone can fly with automation, as long as he has instructions
from someone qualified. And cruise flight and landing are or can be automated
in large jet airliners. So the logical thing to do with an underqualified
person in the cockpit is to stick to the automation to fly and land the
aircraft.

Anyone can turn knobs and move levers, but most people require a certain
amount of practice before they can competently drive a moving vehicle.

If aircraft are similar enough, of course, this doesn't apply. One can fly one
type of Cessna single-engine prop with only experience in other models, and
not make too many mistakes (although retractable gear and pitch adjustments
can complicate things). But these small aircraft and large airliners are not
similar.

Of course, that last part takes some real practice (I failed my
first flight test on the emergency landing). I don't know if
modern airliners can, as they say, land themselves, or at least
if they all can. I m pretty sure that if the plane is set up to
land itself it has to be at a runway set up for it.

Large airliners certified for autoland (which means most airliners) can land
themselves if set up to do so, at airports with the proper equipment (which
means an ILS certified for the purpose, although in a pinch almost any ILS
might suffice). Autolands are not the rule, but in a situation like the one
under discussion, where the airplane might be flown by a non-pilot or a pilot
who doesn't have experience in type, an autoland would be the safest option,
as it requires nothing more than the aforementioned pushing of buttons,
turning of knobs, and movement of levers. No manual flying skill is required,
and manual flying skill is the one thing that you cannot provide to an
inexperienced person in the heat of an emergency.

Hatunen writes:

Cessna makes or made (I don't recall the current structure of the
personal aircraft inudstry) some heavier aircraft than the 150s I
used to fly. Including some Jets (the Citation line).

Yes. I fly a Citation X on my trusty sim all the time. But flying jets is
expensive, and one need not do so for a CPL. Indeed, it might well be the
other way around: CPL, then jets.

Mxsmanic wrote:

You can fly any sort of aircraft as a commercial pilot, and in particular, a
CPL does not necessarily imply any experience at all in large jet transport
aircraft....

You can fly any type of aircraft at all on a private license.

Surprise, surprise!

Brian W
p.s. Entertainment NGs cut out.

brian whatcott writes:

You can fly any type of aircraft at all on a private license.

Surprise, surprise!

Where's the surprise?

On Jun 21, 4:24*am, Mxsmanic wrote:

Large airliners certified for autoland (which means most airliners) can land
themselves if set up to do so, at airports with the proper equipment (which
means an ILS certified for the purpose, although in a pinch almost any ILS
might suffice). Autolands are not the rule, but in a situation like the one
under discussion, where the airplane might be flown by a non-pilot or a pilot
who doesn't have experience in type, an autoland would be the safest option,
as it requires nothing more than the aforementioned pushing of buttons,
turning of knobs,

Yeah right, find the right combination of buttons AND push the button
to talk to a person who may or may not be there to help you push the
right buttons AND fly the plane until you get such combination of
instructions into the MFD to set up for autoland. I BET YOU CAN'T.

Oh wait, your vision is restricted to a 19 inch monitor, so yeah IN
YOUR MSFS simulator, you have a better chance since you don't have a
fear factor of losing your life.

On Jun 21, 12:39*am, Hatunen wrote:

While a heavy jet is a big sucker with a very complex panel
(although lighter aircraft are now sporting some pretty
compicated-looking electronci panels now) the principals are
basic for any one who has flown a plane for even a short time:
keep it level except coordinated turns. To land glide down to
near stall speed, flare at the runway apron and make it stall
just as the wheels tough the runway.

Yep, the drill is fly the plane which means airspeed, airspeed,
airspeed. Look at that ASEL pilot who landed the king air. He knew
the importance of airspeed.

I doubt that John Q Public would know that if they were afronted with
an array of buttons, lights, gauges to realize where the ASI is,
altimeter, heading and such.

Looking at my own experiences, I know it would be extremely
intimidating and distracting, can't imagine John Q Public sitting in
right or left seat being able to assimulate such a vast array of
information plus program the MFD as MX thinks can be easily done.

On Jun 21, 6:55*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
brian whatcott writes:
You can fly any type of aircraft at all on a private license.

Surprise, surprise!

Where's the surprise?

Detail must not be your forte.

Get off your computer, go to your local airport and take a lesson.
Then you will have the answer to your question