Aviation crash videos on-line

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Hello Dudley,

Just curious: Did I ever state I was pushing flight safety ?

No you didn't. That's why I'm taking issue with you. If you had stated a
flight safety relationship with your work you would have had no problem
with me but you didn't do that, and you make absolutely no mention of
any flight safety connection with your work on your site.
The complete absence of the flight safety issue in your "hobby" of
showing crash video indicates to me that your interest in filming and
bringing attention to your work lies in other directions than the flight
safety issue; something with which I, as an ex- demonstration pilot take
VERY seriously!
I've seen this type of exploitation done by both amatuer and
professional photographers all through my professional career. You have
cross posted your web site address along with an open invitation to view
your "work" on at least 5 aviation related newsgroups; steering
"interested parties" to your web site to partake in your "hobby" of
filming and showing airplane crashes; all without one single word about
flight safety.
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.
You have every right to use bandwidth to state your case, and I can
assure you I'll use the same bandwidth to state my answer to your case.
You and I are natural enemies. I'll never buy what you're selling here.
Including the jet teams from 2 countries, I've seen 32 of my close
friends and fellow demonstration pilots die in crashes. I can assure you
that to me, an airplane crash is a lot more than how you view
them......what is it you said on your site......a HOBBY!!!
Sorry; no sale with me anyway.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

30GB in bandwidth in 7 hours put a quick stop to it.

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently. No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA



"F.L. Whiteley" schreef in bericht
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Hello Dudley,

Just curious: Did I ever state I was pushing flight safety ?

No you didn't. That's why I'm taking issue with you. If you had stated a
flight safety relationship with your work you would have had no problem
with me but you didn't do that, and you make absolutely no mention of
any flight safety connection with your work on your site.
The complete absence of the flight safety issue in your "hobby" of
showing crash video indicates to me that your interest in filming and
bringing attention to your work lies in other directions than the flight
safety issue; something with which I, as an ex- demonstration pilot take
VERY seriously!
I've seen this type of exploitation done by both amatuer and
professional photographers all through my professional career. You have
cross posted your web site address along with an open invitation to view
your "work" on at least 5 aviation related newsgroups; steering
"interested parties" to your web site to partake in your "hobby" of
filming and showing airplane crashes; all without one single word about
flight safety.
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.
You have every right to use bandwidth to state your case, and I can
assure you I'll use the same bandwidth to state my answer to your case.
You and I are natural enemies. I'll never buy what you're selling here.
Including the jet teams from 2 countries, I've seen 32 of my close
friends and fellow demonstration pilots die in crashes. I can assure you
that to me, an airplane crash is a lot more than how you view
them......what is it you said on your site......a HOBBY!!!
Sorry; no sale with me anyway.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

30GB in bandwidth in 7 hours put a quick stop to it.

Iwan Bogels wrote:

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently. No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA


Iwan, your aviation photography is top notch - really beautiful stuff,
and it is apparent that you have a love for aircraft and aviation. What
I think Dudley takes issue with is context - you provided none. Not in
your original post, and not on your web page.

I think it's important to acknowledge that in some of these accidents
good people lost their lives or were hurt, and that this should be kept
in mind when watching this. If you put this stuff up on your website,
you have to accept that some people will download this and completely
miss the grave implications of what they are watching. So I think it
will be helpful if you provide a framework of why you are sharing these
videos if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are doing. I
happen to think, like Jay Honeck, that there is nothing wrong with
putting up a bunch of aviation crash videos on your web site in and of
itself. But if it's in the context of "here, check out these COOL
videos!!!" you'll upset people, and rightly so. Flesh out some more
context and make your intentions clearer, and you'll do better.

Having said that, in my own aviation video gallery
http://www.avivhod.com/gallery/AviationVideos
I decided that it's too difficult to convey the right message when
posting aviation crash videos, so I avoided posting them. Other people
can do that, but I decided that it's not for me.

Blue Skies,
Aviv

"Aviv Hod" wrote in
message ...
Iwan Bogels wrote:

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the
subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently.
No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce
myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA


Iwan, your aviation photography is top notch - really beautiful stuff,
and it is apparent that you have a love for aircraft and aviation.
What
I think Dudley takes issue with is context - you provided none. Not
in
your original post, and not on your web page.

I think it's important to acknowledge that in some of these accidents
good people lost their lives or were hurt, and that this should be
kept
in mind when watching this. If you put this stuff up on your website,
you have to accept that some people will download this and completely
miss the grave implications of what they are watching. So I think it
will be helpful if you provide a framework of why you are sharing
these
videos if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are doing. I
happen to think, like Jay Honeck, that there is nothing wrong with
putting up a bunch of aviation crash videos on your web site in and of
itself. But if it's in the context of "here, check out these COOL
videos!!!" you'll upset people, and rightly so. Flesh out some more
context and make your intentions clearer, and you'll do better.

Having said that, in my own aviation video gallery
http://www.avivhod.com/gallery/AviationVideos
I decided that it's too difficult to convey the right message when
posting aviation crash videos, so I avoided posting them. Other
people
can do that, but I decided that it's not for me.

Blue Skies,
Aviv

In my opinion, this is EXACTLY the right attitude to express on this
issue if crash video is to be displayed in a public venue, ESPECIALLY a
pilot's venue. What was lacking in this instance was any reference to
the safety issue, which leaves only the prurient interest in attracting
viewers. You put something like this in front of a pilot who has felt
the consequences of these videos first hand without comment and you can
easily have some issues arise, as they did here.
There is absolutely no negative issue with using photography as a safety
tool, and using photography as an educational tool in the flight safety
context is a long accepted practice that I personally endorse.
The problem occurs when photographers fail to realize, as you have so
correctly stated, that these photographs and videos all involve people,
families, friends, and indeed, human suffering. To simply throw them out
there for the sole purpose of entertainment, or enhancing the
photographer's image within the peer group as having bragging rights to
the pictures is simply unacceptable, especially to those of us who are
involved in the flight safety business.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.
I'm not demanding that people stop watching crash videos put on the net
.. I have merely commented on how I personally, view the practice.
What you and others watch and enjoy watching is your business, as is
what you feel you are "learning" from the experience; and you can do it
without demanding I justify "precisely" my feelings on the matter for
you.

I have simply stated my disgust with those who find this type of thing
"entertaining" from the viewing standpoint, and my disgust for those who
take these pictures and show them in public outside the flight safety
context as a "hobby", which is what has been done in this instance. I
base these feelings on a lifetime of airshow demonstration and flight
safety exposure. You and others as well of course have your own
perspective whatever that might be.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

I love WTC crash pictures!

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes

for

reasons

other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of

viewing

aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is

entertaining

to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen

by the

success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of

hundreds of

county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst

Police

Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them

depicting

auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest

people like

that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"wse" wrote in message ...
I love WTC crash pictures!


Of course you do dear, all top posting trolls-in-training do.

Now give mommy her computer back and run along. The cat needs to be set
afire.

Richard

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other, IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good. Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published, is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"