Aviation crash videos on-line

"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. .
First "Dudley Henriques" writes:
Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to
retract fifty years of sought after professional advice.

Then he professionally advises:
Oh give me a ****ing break!
...and...
Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

He attempts to threaten:
and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have
possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!!

Continues professionally:
God, what a ****ing moron you are.

...and then retracts the threat:
Threatening my ass! The only threats
you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to
your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of
the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have
marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested"
parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name
and any reference of me from your website!
Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that!

Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off
sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do.

Chris

(I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The
"Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now
on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I
get a minute.')

And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's
posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I suppose
we all have our triggers...

John

This is a reasonable response offered intelligently. You are right, and
I apologize to you for the upheaval. The reasons are complicated and I
don't feel the need to expand on them, but you are right, and I was
wrong.
Thank you for the post.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. .
First "Dudley Henriques" writes:
Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to
retract fifty years of sought after professional advice.

Then he professionally advises:
Oh give me a ****ing break!
...and...
Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

He attempts to threaten:
and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have
possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!!

Continues professionally:
God, what a ****ing moron you are.

...and then retracts the threat:
Threatening my ass! The only threats
you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to
your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use
of
the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would
have
marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested"
parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my
name
and any reference of me from your website!
Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that!

Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off
sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do.

Chris

(I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The
"Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now
on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I
get a minute.')
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger

Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. .
First "Dudley Henriques" writes:
Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want
to
retract fifty years of sought after professional advice.

Then he professionally advises:
Oh give me a ****ing break!
...and...
Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

He attempts to threaten:
and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have
possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!!

Continues professionally:
God, what a ****ing moron you are.

...and then retracts the threat:
Threatening my ass! The only threats
you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted
to
your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use
of
the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would
have
marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested"
parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my
name
and any reference of me from your website!
Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that!

Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off
sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do.

Chris

(I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The
"Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now
on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I
get a minute.')

And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about
Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry
either. I suppose we all have our triggers...

The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the trouble.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. .
First "Dudley Henriques" writes:
Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to
retract fifty years of sought after professional advice.

Then he professionally advises:
Oh give me a ****ing break!
...and...
Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

He attempts to threaten:
and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have
possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!!

Continues professionally:
God, what a ****ing moron you are.

...and then retracts the threat:
Threatening my ass! The only threats
you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to
your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of
the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have
marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested"
parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my
name
and any reference of me from your website!
Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that!

Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off
sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do.

Chris

(I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The
"Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now
on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I
get a minute.')

And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's
posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I
suppose we all have our triggers...

The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the trouble.

No trouble at all. I enjoy reading your posts. I know there must be a reason
you flew off the handle.

John

It's complicated, but basically I shouldn't have lost my temper like I
did. I don't do it very often, but when I do, I don't tread lightly.
It's a fault of mine.
I don't come from the world of pleasure flying. That doesn't mean I'm
better than pleasure pilots...just different. I've been pushing
airplanes to the limits of both their and my own maximum performance
limits for many years and survived. It's not a forgiving world. I've
been witness to many people dying in airplanes, a lot of them extremely
close friends. I've served on a few accident investigation teams,
basically within the airshow community.
We're a fairly close community. With us, life's real priorities get put
in order pretty fast. You learn pretty quick what's important and what's
not important in life when you're inverted half way through a slow roll
at 100 feet and you blow an oil line.
Certain things are very sensitive to us; one of these things is the use
of crash video by people outside the professional aviation community for
purposes other than a bonafide crash investigation or a news scenario.
We realize we can't stop it, but we don't like it just the same. For
example, Bud Holland was an idiot; a total disaster. His ultimate death
was considered a foregone conclusion in our little world. It was just a
matter of when it would happen. Bud finally killed himself through
overconfidence and by pushing his airplane too far into the left side of
his envelope. It was a horrible thing to watch. But Bud Holland wasn't
the only person on that airplane. He had a crew, and I knew the co-pilot
on Czar 52.
It's hard to explain how someone coming from my background feels about
seeing this crash and others displayed on a web site. Granted, the site
owner went to the trouble of attaching some related safety notation to
this particular video, and I commend that, but then I saw the two words
COOL and ENJOY.
The only thought that runs through the mind of someone with my
background at such a moment is that this web site owner, even if his
motives were fair and not prurient, had invaded into my personal world.
He hadn't paid the dues required to be in that world. He's just a guy
showing a film that represents the last moments on this earth of a
friend of mine, a nice guy who isn't even mentioned in the accompanying
text.
I don't know the right and wrong of it all. All I know is that to us, in
the airshow community, the showing of our deaths on a page where COOL
and ENJOY are showing as part of the accompanying marquee is like waving
a red flag at a bull.
I know that these videos will be shown, and nothing I can say or do will
prevent them from being shown, but the very least these web sites could
do, simply out of respect for the people who have died in these
accidents, is to remove words like COOL and ENJOY from the site.
The owner of the site has removed the word COOL from the site, and I am
grateful and commend him for doing that, but the word ENJOY, although
I'm sure meaningless to him personally, still leaves that awful taste in
my mouth when I see it there. There was nothing for me to enjoy about
Mark McGeehan's death.
I was wrong to lose my temper with the owner. I really don't think in
reflection that his motives were and are unethical. It's just more than
I can handle I guess, to see an old friend die and know that others are
seeing him die under the word ENJOY!
I guess in the end, you would just have to know someone like me
personally, or be from my little corner of the professional aviation
world to appreciate how I feel about something like this.
Anyway, thank you for your post, and I can assure you, I don't fly off
the handle like that all that often, so hang in there; I'm not REALLY as
dangerous as I must have appeared on this thread. Sometimes I even have
moments of sanity!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship



"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. .
First "Dudley Henriques" writes:
Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want
to
retract fifty years of sought after professional advice.

Then he professionally advises:
Oh give me a ****ing break!
...and...
Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

He attempts to threaten:
and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have
possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!!

Continues professionally:
God, what a ****ing moron you are.

...and then retracts the threat:
Threatening my ass! The only threats
you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted
to
your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your
use of
the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would
have
marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested"
parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove
my name
and any reference of me from your website!
Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that!

Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off
sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do.

Chris

(I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The
"Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are
now
on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when
I
get a minute.')

And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about
Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry
either. I suppose we all have our triggers...

The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the
trouble.

No trouble at all. I enjoy reading your posts. I know there must be a
reason you flew off the handle.

John

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
I had always thought you to be a bit sanctimonious, but I put up with it
for
the knowledge you brought. It just isn't worth it any longer.

Plonk. Sigh.
--
Jim in NC

Your loss!

Tex Houston

"Dave Kearton" wrote
I must admit, that's something I didn't do, not that I could afford to
throw away $165 - but it's not that easy to do with an online store.
This crowd has a generous returns policy - if you're not happy with the
product.



I'm more than happy with the resolution, performance and the
associated editing software and I've since used half a dozen more (of this
brand) for work.


Certainly, yes, if you're buying it from a shopfront, see it first.



Cheers


Dave Kearton



I must admit, the unit you are talking about is something I was unaware of,
until I saw one on the shelf tonight. The kind I have experience with is a
video capture card on the computer, itself.

It does look interesting.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004

Dudley

Thanks for your post.

Unlike you, I am not a pilot, though I have been in love with planes and
flying since I was a wee boy. I have done quite a few hours of instruction
in Pipers and Cessnas but cannot really afford on my salary to get a
licence.

I did use to drive motor bikes professionally as a despatch rider and have
lost a few friends over the years that way.

I know how the fairly flippant portrayal of your friend's death must have
offended you. I think I would have felt the same way. I tried to point that
out to the OP as well. Death casts a shadow.

By a weird coincidence, I was reading just last night for the nth time the
story of the crash in which your friend was killed in Andrew Brookes' book.
If you haven't seen it, it is worth a look. He says the same as you about
it. He and Macarthur Job are highly prized resources on aviation safety;
thoughtful and insightful. If you want a good book on aviation safety, you
could do worse than read it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...175441-4003826

He was an RAF pilot. Great writer.

In his version he claims that several of the crew on that plane were
instructed to go by their superiors because they themselves knew Holland was
a disaster waiting to happen. If that is true, it is a f***ing disgrace.
They would have been braver to ground Holland than themselves I would think.

May I extend my symapthy for your loss.

John

Hi John;

From your post, you sound very much like my good friend David Francis
from the U.K.
He speaks a lot like you and has the same sense of intelligent
reasoning. Nice to know you!

I have a few moments this morning, so let me delve into this a bit
deeper for you.

I think the issues involved in this thread probably go much deeper than
just the videos and my personal reaction to them, although that reaction
obviously is a large part of it. I'm fairly convinced that the original
poster (Bogels) pushing all the videos has motives that are not totally
up front. Perhaps I'm reading it because of my sensitivity to the basic
issue, but I've seen this pattern before. It usually has to do with the
enhancement of reputation by supplying what has been conceived by the
photographer as a basic constant of the human nature factor to view
video like this as a "hook". Actually, it's an effective technique and
is part and parcel of a basic advertising concept known in advertising
101 at the grade school level. It practically guarantees generation of
the excitement needed to attract and steer the viewer toward the real
reason for the video being used. Basically, it's in the same category as
using sex in advertising to generate impact interest.
The other web site involved in the thread, (Honek) I don't believe has
these motives. In other words, I don't believe that if Honek actually
KNEW some of, or even one of the people killed in the videos he's
showing on his site, he would have put the words COOL and ENJOY there to
begin with. So that part of the equation deals with perspective; his,
and naturally my own.
So where does that leave us in the judgment area? Should Honek refrain
from showing his crash videos because they offend me personally? I don't
believe that's a fair solution. He has a right to do whatever he pleases
regardless of the fact that there are those the showing of the video
might offend. And we can add to this that there are indeed many out here
who see no problem whatsoever with showing crash video. Many actually
believe that they can learn something from watching. This of course is
nonsense to anyone with accident investigation experience. Simply
watching a crash video without any explicit knowledge...and I mean
EXPLICIT KNOWLEDGE od the accident being shown yields little in the way
of useful flight safety related data.
For example, if it were possible for the average GA pilot to view a
video of the Thunderbird Diamond crash at Indian Springs Nevada on 18
January 1982 that killed all four T38 positions, absolutely nothing
would be gained from this viewing except to walk away thinking "I won't
be doing low altitude line abreast loops in the T38 any more. It's not a
safe thing to do" Nothing of a safety value would have been gained by
these people watching such a crash video. They just wouldn't be expert
enough to gain useful information from it if that indeed was their
intent in the first place.
To someone like me however, seeing the video would have had meaning. I
know this crash very well. In fact, having flown tests in the T38 prior
to the crash dealing with slab stall and vertical apex penetration speed
vs. altitude, plus knowing the Thunderbird routine myself, I would have
seen something immediately that would have indicated clearly what had
caused this accident.
The point I'm making here is simply that for a layman (layman being
defined as someone not cognizant of specific accident data...including
pilots) to watch a crash video thinking that there's a safety lesson in
doing it.....well, let's just say the time could be better spent
practicing your flying at the local airport. Those of us who deal in
this scenario have long known this to be a fact.
There will always be those pilots who believe that watching a crash
video allows them to come away with a strong safety lesson, but this
just isn't true for the uncontrolled web site viewing environment. It IS
true however, in a CONTROLLED environment, where skilled safety experts
completely familiar with a specific accident using the video along with
expert commentary allow a tremendous safety value to exist for that
video. Anything else other than this scenario is just not an honest
reason for watching the video.
But be that as it may. I can't control human nature. The videos exist,
and people have a right to view both show them and view them as well.
It is my hope that the hotel owner (Honek) will eventually change two
remaining things on his site, if not for me personally, for those who
have died in the videos he has there.
On the left side of the main screen is the link "cool stuff". I would
make a small change there to something more appropriate. I would also
take the word ENJOY off the site, or at least move it to some place
where in context, it remain unattached to the viewing of people dying in
these crashes.
Personally, I would like to believe that Honek is the type of person who
would stop and re-think these two small things and change them. Not that
my opinion of him is all that important, but I think I read some honesty
and integrity in his posts regardless of our somewhat heated discussion.
Anyway, you have taken a ride with me this morning and had a small look
into my world.
Enjoyed having you along.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship





"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
Dudley

Thanks for your post.

Unlike you, I am not a pilot, though I have been in love with planes
and flying since I was a wee boy. I have done quite a few hours of
instruction in Pipers and Cessnas but cannot really afford on my
salary to get a licence.

I did use to drive motor bikes professionally as a despatch rider and
have lost a few friends over the years that way.

I know how the fairly flippant portrayal of your friend's death must
have offended you. I think I would have felt the same way. I tried to
point that out to the OP as well. Death casts a shadow.

By a weird coincidence, I was reading just last night for the nth time
the story of the crash in which your friend was killed in Andrew
Brookes' book. If you haven't seen it, it is worth a look. He says the
same as you about it. He and Macarthur Job are highly prized resources
on aviation safety; thoughtful and insightful. If you want a good book
on aviation safety, you could do worse than read it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...175441-4003826

He was an RAF pilot. Great writer.

In his version he claims that several of the crew on that plane were
instructed to go by their superiors because they themselves knew
Holland was a disaster waiting to happen. If that is true, it is a
f***ing disgrace. They would have been braver to ground Holland than
themselves I would think.

May I extend my symapthy for your loss.

John

Dudley Henriques wrote:

[....]

I'm fairly convinced that the original
poster (Bogels) pushing all the videos
has motives that are not totally up front.

[....]

It is my hope that the hotel owner (Honek)
will eventually change two remaining things
on his site, if not for me personally, for
those who have died in the videos he has...
"cool stuff"...[and "ENJOY"]....


Dudley,

Reading this thread, I have thought back over the losses of friends and
associates and wondered, since I was not present at their destruction,
if I now had videos of their final seconds would I -- could I -- watch
them? Maybe I could, but I probably wouldn't -- not without some very
important goal in mind, perhaps to work directly with others in order to
prevent a similar future occurrence. And it would always be hard -- always.

Have I watched videos of other fatal crashes? Sure, and I will again --
and I can when I don't know the people involved. I want to know how
airplanes come apart, what others at those moments would have witnessed,
and a host of other curiosities -- some professional and some just
human. But when the victims are introduced to me posthumously, in
descriptions by those who knew them, and especially when they are
described as decent competent people, the feeling changes and I become
uncomfortable with the viewing.

In fact, the older I get the less pleasant is the viewing even of old
combat footage. Though I applaud our aerial victories, I am sobered by
the implications, as I now have a better developed sense of the ultimate
reality of the images on the film. Maybe some of it is from an
understanding of how easily my own end could have been similar. Or maybe
it's just knowing how small are the differences between us, no matter
what uniform we wear.

I remember when our squadron lost an F-100F with one fatality and one
very badly burned. At the crash site, where a crowd of locals had
gathered, it seemed so wrong to me that these gawkers could just stand
nearby and watch the removal of our victims in their awful state. I
wanted to herd them all away from the site so that viewing of those
damaged bodies could be prevented. It seemed so disrespectful of my
squadron-mates and friends that outsiders, who knew nothing of their
character and their accomplishments and probably little understood the
value of such men to our nation, should be present at such an awful
moment. But now, who knows? Some of the onlookers may have understood as
well as I, but back then it seemed they couldn't possibly comprehend or
accept the obligation such knowledge placed upon them. And it sure hurt
at the time.

These feelings are not unique I know, and I suspect that they are like
yours WRT to the subject of the crash videos. If pictures of the last
moments of my friends were displayed on a web-site, I would _at the very
least_ want there to be some solemnizing of the display and a strong
indication of a sincere desire to avoid the slightest suspicion of
exploitation. Though I think you may have gone overboard a bit in
Honeck's case, I respect your need to seek Justice, or what passes for
it on USENET.


Jack