Aviation crash videos on-line

"Jack" wrote in message
om...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Sorry; no sale with me anyway.

I see their URL finally disappeared from your responses, Dudley.
Editing
is good.

The fact that they cross-posted to such a mix of NGs tells me their
discretion is questionable, and they may not appreciate your
objections.
I would have had more respect for them had they presented these videos
in some sort of a safety-related context, but then a moral sense of
responsibility is not something held in high esteem these days.

On the other hand, I gain some insight into the physical dynamics of
air
crashes from seeing this type of video, and I think that is valuable.

Cognizance of the human toll, about which you have correctly reminded
us, is essential.


Jack

Admittedly, my perspective on the issue is personal, as I have seen many
close friends die in these crashes, and I agree with you, that presented
properly, crash video has tremendous capability in educating within the
flight safety context. This however, was not done in this case, and
hence, my strong objection.
All the best as always,
D

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

like you guys to take this off USENET though

Suggestion;
Take out the cross posting as I have done to eliminate all but the 2
groups I want to use for this issue, then simply resist the temptation
to hit the send key with a Usenet police post like this one.
Works wonders!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

I love WTC crash pictures!

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes

for

reasons

other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of

viewing

aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is

entertaining

to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen

by the

success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of

hundreds of

county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst

Police

Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them

depicting

auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest

people like

that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by
the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds
of
county fairgrounds across America.

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?


Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people
like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other, IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good. Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published, is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Jay, I checked the NASCAR site
(http://www.nascar.com/2004/promos/20...world_drivers/) and I can
only see them claiming to be the US's top spectator sport. I'll buy that -
like you, I have no way to verify it.

However, I can't believe it's the *world's* top spectator sport:
football/soccer must pull in many more, whether on TV or at the stadiums.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck

The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's
attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL Super
Bowls.

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.