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#11
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Todd... on further personal research... you may be correct..
BT "T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message ... I'm inclined to disagree with BTIZ and Andy, but I agree it's an interesting question. I'd ask the Chief Counsel's Office of the FAA and Lynch. I'd analyze it this way - It's well accepted that a motorglider is a "powered aircraft" at least for the purpose of compliance with FAR 91.205. I believe I've seen other FAR interpretations where motorgliders are considered to be "powered aircraft," but not airplanes. As a result, prior to this question, I've always assumed that the term "powered aircraft" when used in the FARs always swept in motorgliders. Thus, we have to decide for the purpose of FAR 61.69 (which says that "no person may act as pilot in command for towing a glider unless that person: (1) holds at least a private pilot certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft") whether a glider rating is a "private pilot certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft." Strange as it may seem, my answer would be yes. A private pilot with only a glider category rating can legally fly a motorglider, and a motorglider has always been considered by the FAA to be a "powered aircraft." Andy posted that a self launch signoff is not a rating. I agree, but I think the underlying glider rating qualifies as a "category rating for powered aircraft" since it legally allows you to fly a motorglider. Thus, I would say that if you do not have a self-launch signoff, you could launch by aerotow, start the engine in the air, and pick up the glider to be towed by the old flyby ground snatch technique. :-) "BTIZ" wrote: I would tend to agree with Andy on this one.. It would be interesting to get an official FAA ruling in writing. BT "Andy" wrote in message roups.com... Very interesting question and obvious that FAA did not consider towing with motor gliders when this rule was drafted. In my opinion, if your pilot certificate says "ratings - glider" then you do not hold a category rating for powered aircraft. A self launch endorsement is not a rating. If you were grandfathered, like me, you wouldn't even have the endorsement. On the other hand if you have a rating for single engine land you could be qualified to tow, but not to fly the motor glider. To meet the letter of 61.69 you would need to rated in gliders and SEL (or other powered aircraft). The question does not seem to have been asked in the AFS FAQ ref: http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc Try email to John Lynch for an interpretation (address is in the ref above) Andy Greg K. wrote: My apologies. I meant to be more specific in request below. I know the discussion about a motorglider being "powered aircraft" with regard to 14 CFR 91.205. I am asking whether a motorglider is a powered aircraft with regard to pilot certification. Can a Private Pilot-Glider tow? Greg |
#12
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It's guys like Bob C. that make the USA the
land of the free and the home of the brave. By that I mean the land where he is free to do things that the rest of us find a bit...er...quirky ...but very exciting. and home of the brave (HIM) who are willing to try it out. God Bless you, Bob. You have some big stones, man. At 00:00 13 May 2005, Bob C wrote: Very interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer, but I do appreciate the post that showed the AC with a definition of 'motorglider'. I've been looking for that one since I started the jet sailplane project. I have every intention of stretching the limits. How about a 250 MPH twin jet motorglider with a 400 mile range? Can be flown on a glider license without a medical. BTW, I routinely tow behind a helicopter at airshows. I endorsed the helicopter pilot's logbook for towing after simulated tows in a C150/150. At that time I had never even flown a helicopter. There is no aircraft cat/class limitation on a tow endorsement, so he was good to go in anything he was rated for. Bob C. At 18:00 12 May 2005, M B wrote: I wonder what the insurance companies think. In my experience, I've found their opinion of whether a particular type of flight is covered to be far more important than anything the FAA comes up with. If I had an accident, by far my biggest concern isn't whether I'm legal, but whether I am insured. To give you an idea of the impact of insurance, a friend is selling a Lancair IVP (pressurized piston driven 360hp mach .5 single) for less than what a 20 year old A36 Bonanza sells for. The difference: the experimental IVP is almost totally uninsurable... Look at Cessna 310 price/perfomance vs. insurability and you come to the same conclusion. At 17:00 12 May 2005, Andy wrote: Todd, I think we are all in agreement that a motor glider is a powered aircraft. The area that needs to be interpreted is whether a pilot with a glider rating (there is no FAA motor glider rating) has a rating for a powered aircraft. If that pilot does, then do all glider pilots have a rating for powered aircraft? If not, then is the authorization by grandfathering or endorsement to be considered a rating. (I am qualified to fly tail wheel airplanes but I don't have a tail wheel rating because there isn't one.) I hope Greg will post the answer is he ever gets one. To answer 5Z - I don't think there is any doubt that an airship is a powered aircraft so yes, a pilot with glider and an airship ratings would meet the letter of 61.69. Andy Mark J. Boyd Mark J. Boyd |
#13
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BT - What did you find that made you change your position?
The Feds seem fairly clear about what is meant by a rating - ref: Title 14--Aeronautics and Space CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Part 1: DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations. Andy |
#14
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Yes I disagree. The holder of a private - glider rating does not hold
a rating for a powered aircraft since the category "glider" is not a powered aircraft". It has nothing to do with what you are authorized to fly. Tailwheel, complex, high performance all require specific authorization but they are not ratings. Similarly an auhorization to fly a motor glider is not a rating. Andy |
#15
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"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message ... snip I think you are confusing the instructor signoff needed to self-launch with the rating required to act as PIC of a motorglider (aka "powered aircraft") You can fly a motorglider as PIC without the self-launch signoff, as long as you do not self-launch. You can legally start the engine in the air, cruise and land with the engine running, as long as you do not self-launch. Hello Todd, from your prior post in this thread "Thus, IMHO, it's pretty inescapable that the holder of a private glider certificate "holds at least a private pilot certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft." Do you disagree?" Are you stating that the holder of a private glider certificate can be PIC of an ASEL Cessna as long as it is not self-launched? and more likely Are you stating that the holder of a private glider certificate with an instructor signoff needed to self-launch can be legal PIC of an ASEL Cessna? Is this intended as a practical interpretation or an academic discussion? You have earned your credibility here and I doubt that you would jeopardize this lightly. For anyone planning on doing this use CAUTION as the FAA does not pay for lawyers themselves and this interpretation (if correct) may be costly to prove, AND the insurer may not share the FAA definitions, which may mean you will be flying without FAA required insurance. Remember that the FAA (and the lawyers) always win in the end. Cu to all |
#16
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private wrote:
Hello Todd, from your prior post in this thread "Thus, IMHO, it's pretty inescapable that the holder of a private glider certificate "holds at least a private pilot certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft." Do you disagree?" Are you stating that the holder of a private glider certificate can be PIC of an ASEL Cessna as long as it is not self-launched? and more likely Are you stating that the holder of a private glider certificate with an instructor signoff needed to self-launch can be legal PIC of an ASEL Cessna? What he is saying seems pretty clear to me. Any private glider pilot can legally fly (and launch, given the appropriate endorsement), based on their certificate, FAA-designated "powered aircraft" (i.e., motorgliders). So, simple logic suggests that the holder of a private glider certificate possesses a "category rating for powered aircraft", as he/she is clearly permitted to fly a specific category of "powered aircraft". The fact that it does not permit flying any "powered aircraft" (like a Cessna 172) without an endorsement, is completely irrelevant. The holder of a private certificate with ASEL rating only, nonetheless requires solo endorsements to fly motorgliders, airships, or helicopters, despite possessing a "private certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft". If there is any distinction between the two cases above, it will only be because the FAA doesn't necessarily apply "logic" to its interpretation of its own regulations... Marc |
#17
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So despite the various arguments I think it's going to come down to
whether the FAA considers a glider to be a powered aircraft. (Note I said glider, not motor glider, since the issued rating is glider not motor glider). The FAA defines a glider, and that definition allows the use of power, but not as the primary means of flight. I could not find an FAA definition of "powered aircraft" although there are definitions of several subordinates, including powered parachutes. Anyway perhaps Greg K now has a feel for the sort of argument/discussion he is likely to get into when he seeks an official interpretation. As a practical matter has anyone seen a 337 for a tow hook installation on a motor glider, or a U.S. registered motor glider with a tow hook (on the aft end)? Andy |
#18
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Sorry that was intended to follow Todd's post (16).
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#19
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So despite the various arguments I think it's going to come down to
whether the FAA considers a glider to be a powered aircraft. (Note I said glider, not motor glider, since the issued rating is glider not motor glider). The FAA defines a glider, and that definition allows the use of power, but not as the primary means of flight. I could not find an FAA definition of "powered aircraft" although there are definitions of several subordinates, including powered parachutes. Anyway perhaps Greg K now has a feel for the sort of argument/discussion he is likely to get into when he seeks an official interpretation. As a practical matter has anyone seen a 337 for a tow hook installation on a motor glider, or a U.S. registered motor glider with a tow hook (on the aft end)? Andy |
#20
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My $1.05 opinion...
The FAA won't even look at this as a request, because it is too low down the priority list. If an accident occurs, they will look, and will find that if the pilot was rated for gliders and had the self-launch endorsement and met all the other tow endorsement and currency requirements, that they won't do any enforcement action. If required by the insurer, someone at FAA will write it out, sign it, and stick a stamp on it. Whether this is good enough for an insurer...that is an entirely different matter. With insurers, the ask permission vs. beg forgiveness STRONGLY favors the ask permission idea, in my experience. At 21:01 16 May 2005, T O D D P A T T I S T wrote: 'Andy' wrote: So despite the various arguments I think it's going to come down to whether the FAA considers a glider to be a powered aircraft. I don't think I'd phrase it quite like that. I think it comes down to whether the FAA thinks the holder of a glider rating is someone who 'holds at least a private pilot certificate with a category rating for powered aircraft' (Note I said glider, not motor glider, since the issued rating is glider not motor glider). It is true that the issued rating is 'glider,' but it's also true that the FAA considers the term 'glider' to include powered aircraft (also called 'powered gliders') and non-powered aircraft. AC No: 21.17-2A -'Powered gliders are considered to be powered aircraft for the purpose of complying with 91.205.' The FAA defines a glider, and that definition allows the use of power, but not as the primary means of flight. I could not find an FAA definition of 'powered aircraft' although there are definitions of several subordinates, including powered parachutes. I don't believe there is an FAA definition of 'powered aircraft.' There are AC references that tell us powered gliders are powered aircraft and have to comply with all FARs using the term 'powered aircraft.' There are also AC references stating that a motorglider or a powered glider is a 'glider.' Anyway perhaps Greg K now has a feel for the sort of argument/discussion he is likely to get into when he seeks an official interpretation. Yep. I definitely agree with this. As a practical matter has anyone seen a 337 for a tow hook installation on a motor glider, or a U.S. registered motor glider with a tow hook (on the aft end)? Two more great questions. If Greg K does ask the FAA, I'd love to know the answer. Mark J. Boyd |
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