Bounced landing recovery?

Yup, keep that nosewheel off the ground!
--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

"Newps" wrote in message
...
In a 182 if you bounce back in the air you do not move the controls,
stay in your landing attitude, increase RPM by 50-100 and let it land.
You start rowing the controls is when you start losing parts.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:40:03 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
] wrote:

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From: Rolf Blom

"Bounced landing"?
What's that?

It's when you land too fast, and the plane still has enough lift to
bounce you back up; you can start oscillating or 'gallop' if you use
elevator to get back down, since lowering the nose adds speed & lift
again. Can be a nasty roller-coaster ride along the runway.

I'd really not call that a bounce as it's usually referred to as a
porpoise.

Thanks for taking the trouble to offer an answer, but I was trying to make
a (obviously poor) joke.
In 30 years I've never bounced a landing. Not even as a student.

I've had some I'd call ricochets:-))

I've "skipped" a couple of landings where the wheels lightly graze the
the runway a couple of times. And I've done, um, let's say 1 or 2 landings
where I thought about visiting a dentist to see if I loosened a couple of fillings
on touchdown. But I've never contacted the runway hard and fast enough to
put the plane back in the air.

That makes you a very rare individual indeed.

This thread actually has me a bit concerned that I'm destined to become
one of those "experienced" pilots that finds themselves in an NTSB
report the first time they DO bounce a landing! How the hell do you practice
a bounced landing if you've never done one?

This is my opinion.

I'm not sure just how serious this is but ... Landings are bounced due
to excessive speed, AND/OR landing on the nose gear first.
There are also gusty winds where you touch down nicely and then get
hit by a strong gust that lifts the plane as much as 10 feet. There
are some who wouldn't call this a bounce, but it will be if not
properly handled.

If the bounce is due to a gust, REMEMBER you are flying but you do not
have enough speed to keep flying and that gust will not last forever.
It the gust only lifted you a little, set it back down, but anything
more than a little is time for power. If it's high enough that
dropping in from that height is going to break or bend something
important put the power in and go around.
"When in doubt, go around!"

In many planes it is very difficult to get it on the mains first when
you have excessive speed. In this case the pilot recognizes the
excess rate of descent and pulls the nose up and the plane contacts on
the mains. Unfortunately he now has the nose up and when it rebounds
off the mains plus the lift it's back up and sometimes for quite a
distance. *Typically* easing the nose into the proper position at the
proper time will fix it as there is still enough energy to flare.
_BUT_NOT_ALWAYS! They sometimes do take just a shot of power.
"When in doubt, go around!"

If the plane is coming in at a too high a speed in a normal attitude
the nose gear will contact first, bringing the nose up as the mains
are continuing down. This results in a rather steep nose up rebound.
Instinct is to get the nose down, but usually too much and there is
not enough energy left to flare which makes the next bounce even
higher. This is called a "Porpoise" as it imitates the actions of
one. Usually they end up busting the nose gear on #3. Every one I've
seen did 3 and broke the gear.

The remedy is a timely application of power.
A Porpoise is *dangerous* and it's better to swallow one's pride and
just go around. Those of us who have done enough of them (yes I admit
it) can often apply power and controls in such a manner as to salvage
many of these, but the old adage still holds true:
"When in doubt, go around!"

I fly in just about any kind of weather except ice and in
thunderstorms. I've flown in strong, gusty winds, and even gusty
cross winds since early on as a student. That being the case, I've
bounced, porpoised, and ricoched my way down many a runway.

I also practice right up to the airplane's limits(and mine) for cross
winds which are over double the "demonstrated cross wind component" in
the POH.

I also like to practice short field landings using everything from a
stabilized pattern to a steep slipping U-turn to the runway. This too
has resulted in a few rather un elegant landings, some of which even
the term *arrival* is a bit kind.

I was watching some crop dusters yesterday. The winds were picking up
and gusty. One made three landings before it was down to stay. Those
guys have experience most of us will never approach.





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Roger

I'm not sure just how serious this is but ... Landings are bounced due
to excessive speed, AND/OR landing on the nose gear first.

Not to be too picky, but I think that bounced landings in a nosegear
aircraft are generally due to too great a sink rate. The gear are not able
to absorb all the energy and the aircraft is literally bounced back into the
air. The airspeed is not the direct problem; it's what you do or don't do
with it in the roundout and flare. Strictly speaking, I could cross the
fence at Vne and still land without bouncing if I had a long enough runway
and enough patience to bleed off all that excess airspeed in ground effect.

I use the disclaimer "nosegear" because the dynamic is different in a
tailwheel aircraft. In a taildragger, a 3 point landing must be at full
stall. Anything faster than that will cause the tail to pitch down,
increasing the AoA and lift, and causing the plane to lift off again. A
wheel landing can be at darn near any airspeed above stall if the pilot is
skilled enough. In my Decathlon, which has a stall speed of 54 mph, I can
grease a wheel landing at 70 to 80 mph without trouble, and I'm not
particularly skilled at it.

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:47 GMT, "Ed H" wrote:



I'm not sure just how serious this is but ... Landings are bounced due
to excessive speed, AND/OR landing on the nose gear first.

Not to be too picky, but I think that bounced landings in a nosegear
aircraft are generally due to too great a sink rate. The gear are not able
to absorb all the energy and the aircraft is literally bounced back into the
air. The airspeed is not the direct problem; it's what you do or don't do

The airspeed is *the* problem. Without excessive airspeed it ain't
gonna bounce much. More than likely it'll hit and go splat.
That is why with the Bo a normal landing takes power and a power off
landing is a fair amount faster. According to the POH the extra speed
is to give enough energy to flare.

True that with excessive forward speed and poor timing at arresting
the rate of descent together can produce a really impressive bounce.
Flown by the numbers, final on the Bo is slow and steep. If the engine
quits you shove the nose down to get enough speed to flare. If it
quits as you are entering the round out you are likely going to be
calling your insurance carrier.

In practicing short field landings I have come in with just a bit too
much sink rate. It set down on the mains with the nose wheel high and
it did not bounce. As the airline pilots say, "It was an arrival".

Many years ago, I took a friend for a rid in the old Cherokee 180. I
asked him how much he weighed as he was a rather hefty guy. He said
240 which put us well within the GC envelope.

When we were coming down final I had reached the point where it was
time to pull the power and glide in. When the power came off the nose
went down and the airspeed headed up. I poured on the power and
brought the nose up. The nose wheel never touched but I'll bet we
bounced 50 feet into the air. The second bounce was only about 10
feet and we didn't bounce at all on the third touch down. He weighed
a *lot* more than 240.

with it in the roundout and flare. Strictly speaking, I could cross the
fence at Vne and still land without bouncing if I had a long enough runway
and enough patience to bleed off all that excess airspeed in ground effect.

As long as the touchdown is not premature. If it is, it is likely to
be on the nose gear which will come up bringing the mains down and we
are off to the beginnings of a beautiful porpoise. Flying on some
nose draggers will result in a beautiful imitation of a wheel barrow
and that can be exciting. I believe the Twin Comanche is prone to
this with an inexperienced pilot. (Any Twin Comanche drivers care to
comment?)


I use the disclaimer "nosegear" because the dynamic is different in a
tailwheel aircraft. In a taildragger, a 3 point landing must be at full
stall.

That's the way I land the Deb. (most of the time)
When I made my first landing at the airsafety foundation training the
CFII asked if I learned to fly in tail draggers. I told him no, it
was just the way I was taught. Main gear is rugged for landing and
nose gear is light, fragile, and expensive and for steering AFTER the
landing.


Anything faster than that will cause the tail to pitch down,
increasing the AoA and lift, and causing the plane to lift off again. A
wheel landing can be at darn near any airspeed above stall if the pilot is
skilled enough. In my Decathlon, which has a stall speed of 54 mph, I can
grease a wheel landing at 70 to 80 mph without trouble, and I'm not
particularly skilled at it.

That is faster than I land the Deb. Alone and with about an hours
worth of fuel burned off, I'd be coming down final around 76 to 78
*MPH* Even at gross it's only 80. Stall with me and partial fuel is
only 55 MPH. So touch down at full stall in ground effect is
probably 40 MPH or less.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

("Roger" wrote)
much good stuff snipped
So touch down at full stall in ground effect is probably 40 MPH or less.


I talked with a guy last week with a beautiful (IFR) 1981 Piper Tomahawk. He
said a lot of people took off the original smaller tires (including flight
schools) and went with a bigger size setup. He said many, many broken engine
mounts later people switched back to the original size tires. Too much
speed, too much bounce...


Montblack

"Montblack" wrote

I talked with a guy last week with a beautiful (IFR) 1981 Piper Tomahawk.
He
said a lot of people took off the original smaller tires (including flight
schools) and went with a bigger size setup. He said many, many broken
engine
mounts later people switched back to the original size tires. Too much
speed, too much bounce...

How does larger tires cause too much speed?
--
Jim in NC

("Morgans" wrote)
How does larger tires cause too much speed?


I think the speed is sometimes a given - flight schools. Bigger tires then
caused (or resulted in) more bouncing ...which was exasperated by the speed.
Sound logical??

I'm thinking he said he has 5.00x5 tires on now, and that Tomahawk owners
were putting 6.00x6 tires on, but started having those engine mount
problems - guessing at the sizes from what I remember.

Would be nice to hear if someone else has heard of this in Tomahawks.


Montblack

"Montblack" wrote


I think the speed is sometimes a given - flight schools. Bigger tires then
caused (or resulted in) more bouncing ...which was exasperated by the
speed.
Sound logical??

I knew that, but I was fishin'! I thought someone might pipe up on how
bigger tires cause less drag, and you reach the ground sooner than expected,
and ...yada,yada,yada. Come'on, Montbwack! Get with the program!
(vbg)
--
Jim in NC

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:47 GMT, "Ed H" wrote:



I'm not sure just how serious this is but ... Landings are bounced due
to excessive speed, AND/OR landing on the nose gear first.

Not to be too picky, but I think that bounced landings in a nosegear
aircraft are generally due to too great a sink rate. The gear are not
able
to absorb all the energy and the aircraft is literally bounced back into
the
air. The airspeed is not the direct problem; it's what you do or don't
do

The airspeed is *the* problem. Without excessive airspeed it ain't
gonna bounce much. More than likely it'll hit and go splat.
That is why with the Bo a normal landing takes power and a power off
landing is a fair amount faster. According to the POH the extra speed
is to give enough energy to flare.


I agree that excessive airspeed plus excessive sink rate probably gives the
most spectacular bounces. But excessive sink rate at the correct approach
speed can also lead to a damaging bounce, especially in aircraft with spring
steel gear like old Cessna 172s and 152s. That springy gear flings the bird
back up into the air a few feet. The pilot shoves the stick forward,
increasing the impact of the second bounce and throwing the plane even
higher. On the second or third bounce, the plane rises out of ground
effect, stalls, and drops all the way to the runway. At least that's the
way it has been explained to me (never experienced it). I suppose you would
need a few knots over stall speed to get that bounce, but you wouldn't
really have to be that hot.

I only have a few hours in a Deb, and only 2 landings, but I found it an
easy plane to land. I just drove it onto the runway.

For a really fun bounce, nothing quite compares with your first few wheel
landings when you're getting your TW endorsement. I'm in the market for a
Pitts. I'm looking forward to learning to fly it, but not looking forward
to learning to land it.

("Morgans" wrote)
snipping his line(s)
I knew that, but I was fishin'!


Did I get hooked ...or just noodled?

http://petesbait.com/articles/noodling.php


Montblack
You're gonna need a bigger boat, if you were trying to net me - unless you
have the the formula to "transparent aluminum" and access to a transporter.
g