Instrument rating??

The way to die, is in bed with your boots on (paraphrase) G

Naw . . . the way to die is in bed at the age of 80, shot to death by a jealous
husband. G


www.Rosspilot.com

Paul Folbrecht wrote in message link.net...
I had always planned on getting my instrument rating- within the next
year, probably. But last weekend I had a chat with someone who really
got me thinking about it.

This guy is a friend of a friend and is a retired 20,000 hour ATP.
Retired in the 80s flying 707s and I forget what else. Instructed in
Cubs for years. (Guy has nine count 'em nine engine failures in Cubs!
Two inside 20 minutes once!)

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

To get instrument rated is one of the smartest things you can do.
Aside from keeping you upside right as opposed to upside wrong?---- it
will enhance all your flying and more aware of what you are doing.
I recall a pilot many years ago who told me I should stay away from
helicopters if I didn't fly them everyday. Well, he is dead in a
mid-air with some other pilots who flew everyday (Los Angeles 1966,
air watch pilot and LA Sheriffs over Chavez Ravine). These many years
later I am still flying helicopters and not on a weekly basis. I am
instrumented rated in both fixed wing and helicopter and still don't
fly that often in IMC. Would I go and challenge it right now? NOT ON
YOUR LIFE.(NOR MINE) But, am I confident that I can stay right side up
in IMC? Yes....and more importantly, I have learned how to stay out of
those situations that require my superior skills! It prevented me from
a potential crash while doing night frost control when fog suddenly
developed and we had to land. I found it during a turn, got vertigo
while in a pull up/turn-around and when I got ground contact again
discovered I was in a 20 degree bank going backwards. PLEASE...FOR
THOSE WHO ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS WITH AT LEAST 10,000 HOURS DON'T TELL
ME HOW STUPID THAT WAS? Simply something that the pro runs into from
time to time and deals with.
There is the key... The instrument rating teaches you limits that need
to be worked on. Can I shoot a 0/0 approach right now? I seriously
doubt it. Can I get it on the ground safely? Well its for certain I
can feel better about it with my IMC experience and ratings than if I
didn't have it/them.
Get your instrument rating and you'll never be sorry about it. If you
are like me, even driving your driving a car will improve!
Ol Shy & Bashful

One question conspicuously missing from this thread is:

"Where do you live and/or fly?"

There are parts of the US where a casual flyer might fly two years without
encountering actual IMC conditions. Does anyone seriously think that adds up
to currency.

Another question is: "How much flying will you be able to afford to do, in
terms of both other financial and other time commitments." This, too, will
be a factor in maintaining currency.

As I always note, I'm still a wannabe, waiting for the Sport Pilot
Certificate to be approved, but you can pick up a lot of good information
from even a little bit of reading.

But the issue here is not about a reasonably current and experienced pilot
launching into "hard" IMC. The issue is about a current pilot who hasn't
flown actual IMC in a year who goes into a fairly benign cloud, becomes
disoriented, and breaks his airplane.

And from what I've read, this happens far more often than you would imagine.

No offense to anyone here, but any advice that doesn't include the factors
I've mentioned is not very good advice. You always have to consider
everything...


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
ink.net...
I had always planned on getting my instrument rating- within the next
year, probably. But last weekend I had a chat with someone who really
got me thinking about it.

This guy is a friend of a friend and is a retired 20,000 hour ATP.
Retired in the 80s flying 707s and I forget what else. Instructed in
Cubs for years. (Guy has nine count 'em nine engine failures in Cubs!
Two inside 20 minutes once!)

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:53:29 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

Instrument training in and of itself is a "good thing™." It will make
you a more knowledgable and professional airman.

That said, if you lack the good sense to know your limitations, no
amount of training will save you.

Absolutely, Larry...
There are those who do, and those who talk about it - endlessly...
As Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
denny

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message That said, if you lack
the good sense to know your limitations, no
amount of training will save you.

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:37:37 -0600, "Bill Denton"
wrote:

But the issue here is not about a reasonably current and experienced pilot
launching into "hard" IMC. The issue is about a current pilot who hasn't
flown actual IMC in a year who goes into a fairly benign cloud, becomes
disoriented, and breaks his airplane.

The OP's issue was whether or not to undergo instrument training. He wrote
nothing about exercising the kind of poor judgement you describe.

The issue you are writing about has to do with "judgement". Do you really
believe that an instrument rating will lead a pilot who ordinarily
exercises good judgement to exercise poor judgement? If so, I would
disagree and would argue that that pilot will exercise poor judgement
whether or not he has an instrument rating.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Paul,

(Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)


Well, that logic isn't. You could take-off VFR into crosswinds you can't
handlo for lack of practice. You could to low passes of barbecues without
practice. That kind of decision-making is an everyday part of flying.
You're either good at it or not - it has nothing to do with an IR.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

John,

This
statement is a perfect example of why hours do not necessarily mean
competence in aviation.


methinks thou doth protest too much......


Methinks he s dead-on right - in both posts.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Paul,

(He landed, looked things over, restarted, did a runup, looked
good, took off.. and ended up in the next field over.)


See? There's a TON of unreasonable risk taking in that chain of eventy.
And you're going to let a guy like that tell you what'S risky in
aviation? Jeeze!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Paul Folbrecht wrote
Thanks for all the feedback. The common theme is obvious: just know
your limitations, which should go without saying anyway!

Just realize that "knowing your limitations" will usually mean
limiting your use of the instrument rating to conditions that you
could have legally flown VFR. The moment you start using your
instrument rating to fly in weather that isn't legally flyable VFR,
you need to be thinking real hard about what you are doing.

There is a lot of truth to what your friend said.

I get a lot of questions about getting an instrument rating from a lot
of low time pilots. I'm a practicing CFII; these are all potential
customers. I try to talk most of them out of it.

It's not that an instrument rating is inherently bad. No training is
ever bad. If nothing else, you will spend 40 hours flying in a
structured, goal-oriented environment. On top of that, you're
guaranteed to learn SOMETHING about IFR flying.

The problem is this - if you're not flying 2-3 times a week, that
instrument rating is going to come at the cost of something else. If
all it replaces is a bunch of $100 hamburger runs under blue skies and
over familiar territory, then no great loss. But if time and money
are limited, there are lots of things you could do that would be a
better use of limited resources to make you a better, safer, and more
capable pilot.

You could take some training in flying low VFR. If you consider XC
flight over relatively flat terrain with 1000 ft ceilings to be scary
and not doable under VFR, then I assure you that such training will do
far more for your ability to get where you want to go when you want to
get there in a light single than an instrument rating ever will. You
could fly a taildragger or a glider, you could do aerobatics or
formation flying, or you could make cross country mean something and
cross the country.

I'll still be planning on that ticket. Whether or not I go for it some
time is relevant to me at the moment because I'm looking at the purchase
of a C150 or 152 and need to decide if I need IFR cert.

You might consider a Tomahawk instead. I'm seeing a lot of low time
IFR Tomahawks out there in the $20K range. They're not quite as good
a soft/rough field airplane as a C-150, but they are better planes in
every other respect.

Michael