Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

Arketip,

Interesting pseudonym ! Are you a fan of Jung?

Antonio

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Anto=F1io" wrote in message
ups.com...

You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.


You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it d=
oes
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

I am not sure of exactly where to put this post so I will just stick it
here and repeat it elsewhere in hopes that everyone will read it.

Due to the gallant efforts of Peter, Bob, Steve, Gary, you and a few
others I must humbly eat crow. You guys have made me see the light.

I have come to the conclusions that:

1=2E I flew too wide a pattern without regard to VFR references but only
paying attention to the aircraft that I had to follow. Looking back, I
suspect that I did not actually enter class B but was very close to it.
The controller warned me of that fact and I turned sufficiently early
because of that warning to avoid penetrating B airspace. This is why I
never got the infamous, "Call the tower..." message.

2=2E Though I am quite capable of flying a tight pattern with 14 years of
mountain flying under my belt, I got a bit lazy. I possibly turned my
downwind too wide, I think, causing me to be headed for the closest
part of B airspace from the get-go. B airspace is about 3/4 mile or so
from the end of the runway if one is too wide as I understand it.

2=2E5 It is quite possible to fly safely in this area and avoiding B
airspace if one is aware of the VFR landmarks. Pete is correct... So is
the unnamed famous author that wrote me privately. ;-)

3=2E I became stubborn and positioned myself as if a lawyer defending a
position for a client and lost the big picture. It was fun though and
I learned alot! :-)

4=2E As has been pointed out, I sort of expected ATC to bail me out of my
lazy piloting by blaming them for not sequencing me properly. Had I
been on the ball I would have slowed or s-turned ( but no 360 ! ) and
turned a tighter pattern.

5=2E I may have insulted some here. I apologize for that. Especially to
Pete for my crack about seeing a psychologist. I hope you know that I
don't think you are crazy all the time. ;-)

6=2E Though I am still a bit hazy on the tiny details of the legal
responsibilities of ATC in this, I am sure that they acted
appropriately within the boundaries of what was traditionally expected.

In conclusion, ( I hope!) let me say that you all have made me see
things more clearly and have helped this pilot to be a little safer. I
thank you all.

Sincerly,

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
2.5 It is quite possible to fly safely in this area and avoiding B
airspace if one is aware of the VFR landmarks.

Phew...I was afraid you were never going to figure that out.

[...] I thank you all.

You're welcome.

Pete

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...
3. I became stubborn and positioned myself as if a lawyer defending a
position for a client and lost the big picture.

I think most of us have done that on occasion; it's an occupational hazard
of newsgroup posting.

Thanks for a provocative discussion and a gracious conclusion.

--Gary

It doesn't matter who has jurisdiction if neither of them issued a
clearance into Class B airspace.

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

That's just bureaucratic hogwash. If the Class D controller didn't have the
jurisdiction, he shouldn't have given the instruction.

Once again, Class D is shown to be the least controlled, least useful, most
dangerous airspace in the NAS.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:TiEme.20500$g66.9921@attbi_s71...
Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

No, it's not. Not being an actual clearance, it provides no authority to
enter the Class B.

That's just bureaucratic hogwash.

It's a perfectly natural interpretation of the regulations, and it works
quite well in practice.

If the Class D controller didn't have the jurisdiction, he shouldn't have
given the instruction.

The instruction in question didn't require entry into the Class B airspace.

If it had, then yes...it would have been true that the controller shouldn't
have given the instruction, just as no controller should give any
instruction that would require the pilot to operate contrary to the FARs.

Even so, controllers are people too, and thus make mistakes, and thus every
pilot should be paying attention to the implications of any ATC instruction,
and using their PIC responsibility to ensure they don't wind up violating a
regulation (among other things) as a result of complying with the
instruction.

Once again, Class D is shown to be the least controlled, least useful,
most dangerous airspace in the NAS.

How so?

The way I see it, by definition Class G airspace is the least controlled.
Accident statistics will prove what's the most dangerous airspace (could be
Class D, but this thread in no way shows accident statistics).

"Least useful" is an entirely subjective description, but with all the
different kinds of airspace out there, I find it difficult to believe that
an airspace that ensures (as much as any airspace boundary can ensure
anything) only aircraft in communication with a controller are present, and
which provides for an area that a controller can use to sequence aircraft
onto and off of a runway, could wind up being the "least useful". I can
name a half-dozen Prohibited Areas, at least one area being called an
"ADIZ", and a Class E surface area, all of which I find less useful than the
KBFI Class D airspace.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:TiEme.20500$g66.9921@attbi_s71...

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?



No, it's not, for two reasons:

1.) A clearance contains the word "cleared".

2.) Following the Arrow did not require entry of the Class B airspace.



That's just bureaucratic hogwash. If the Class D controller didn't have
the jurisdiction, he shouldn't have given the instruction.


You'd have a point if following the instruction required entry of the Class
B airspace. It didn't.



Once again, Class D is shown to be the least controlled, least useful,
most dangerous airspace in the NAS.


You want more control? Write your Congress Critters. Tell them all Class D
surface areas should be made Class C and you'll happily pay user fees to
cover the cost of the additional controllers and radar.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:12:19 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in TiEme.20500$g66.9921@attbi_s71::

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

No it's not. Being told by the Local Controller to, "Follow the
Arrow" is an instruction. ATC clearances contain the word 'cleared'
and ATC provides separation from known aircraft. Because Class D
Local Controllers are only able to provide runway clearances to VFR
aircraft, being told by the Local Controller to, "Follow the Arrow" is
an instruction, not a clearance. (Approach Control, not Local
Controllers) provide practice approach clearances to VFR aircraft, but
that's another issue.)

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the Pilot/Controller
Glossary definition for ATC Clearance:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/A.HTM#...IC%20CLEARANCE

AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for
the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an
aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within
controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not
deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or
instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an
emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained.
Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from
that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if
information available to the pilot makes another course of action
more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company
procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may
also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time
a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable
because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances
and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor
the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in
command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the
final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT
IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a
clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or
regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in
jeopardy.

That's just bureaucratic hogwash. If the Class D controller didn't have the
jurisdiction, he shouldn't have given the instruction.

Right; Being told by the Local Controller to, "Follow the Arrow" is an
instruction, not a clearance. ATC Instructions, unlike ATC
Clearances, do not provide separation from other known aircraft to
prevent collision. Because being instructed by the Local Controller
to, "Follow the Arrow" is not a clearance, the pilot has the
discretion to navigate his aircraft as he determines appropriate
within the bounds of the instruction, including a 360 degree turn for
spacing (not recommended) if s/he feels that is the most appropriate
action to remain outside of Class B airspace in this case while
following the Arrow.

Here's the definition for ATC Instruction:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/A.HTM#ATC%20INSTRUCTIONS

ATC INSTRUCTIONS- Directives issued by air traffic control for the
purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific actions; e.g., "Turn
left heading two five zero," "Go around," "Clear the runway."

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...

Proper phrasology for airspace violation:

N123 posible aircraft deviation suggest you call XYZ Tower/Aproach/etc
at xxx-xxx-xxxx

if your talking to the tower and didnt here this you arent going to
get busted. If controller 'A' is controlling you and they advice you
to follow another aircraft visual speration has been applied.


That's true where separation is being provided, but no separation is
provided for VFR aircraft in Class D airspace.



Controller A is responsible for ensuring aircraft under his control do
not violate an adjacent controllers/facilities airspace. ie. ABC
approach, XYZ tower "pont out' (on the land lines), xx miles east N123
landing XYZ. If your aircraft went into that airspace and the
controller busted you, he would get a 'deal' as well. Which no
controller wants.


A "point out" is a radar function, used to transfer the radar identification
of an aircraft to another radar controller if the aircraft will or may enter
the airspace of another controller and radio communications will not be
transferred.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:TiEme.20500$g66.9921@attbi_s71...

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

No, it's not, for two reasons:

1.) A clearance contains the word "cleared".

Not always. Taxi clearances don't (AIM 4-3-18a5). Also, once you've been
cleared into Class B, don't subsequent vectors or altitude assignments
constitute clearances, even though they don't say "cleared"?

If you're getting flight following and a Class B approach controller tells
you to fly a heading and altitude which would in fact take you into the
Class B, would that constitute a clearance? I've been taught it would not
(and I'd always ask the controller to confirm clearance into Class B), but I
see nothing in the FARs or the AIM that says whether or not such an
instruction (even without "cleared to") constitutes a clearance; I see
nothing there that says a clearance contains the word "cleared" (even though
I assume that's the case, except for taxi clearances and revisions to
previous clearances).

--Gary