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#21
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A couple of questions about IPC
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
... On 02/09/06 07:45, Gary Drescher wrote: "three-eight-hotel" wrote in message oups.com... You have 6 months after your currency lapses to become current, without having to do an IPC... You are not legal to fly IFR, but you may take a safety pilot up with you and become current again. If you miss the 6 month window to become current, you will have to perform an IPC. I'm sure if I stated that incorrectly or unclearly, someone will jump in to correct me... ;-) No error, but one addition may be useful: another alternative is to fly IFR and do the approaches in IMC, but with another pilot (who's IFR-current) acting as PIC. --Gary Wait a tick ;-) Are you saying that if you're beyond the 6-month currency, that you can fly in actual IMC and all you need is an IR- current safety pilot - not a CFII? In this case, the IR-current pilot isn't functioning as "safety pilot". That's the term for a traffic-spotting pilot in VMC when the pilot doing the flying is wearing a hood. In my scenario, there's no hood and no safety pilot--just another pilot acting as PIC. --Gary |
#22
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A couple of questions about IPC
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
... On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:23:33 -0800, Mark Hansen wrote: Yes, but I didn't think this 'monkey' was allowed to use the time toward IR currency. If you review 61.57 regarding instrument currency, you will see that the requirements are for logging flight under actual or simulated instrument conditions. The requirements for logging are merely that you be sole manipulator of the controls. So yes, the non-current pilot can manipulate the controls and log PIC in IMC, while the IR pilot acts as PIC, but cannot log PIC while in IMC. Yup. Or alternatively, the PIC can log PIC time, and the non-current pilot can log the approaches, but not log PIC time. (The PIC's ability to log PIC time--as long as the sole manipulator doesn't also do so--isn't actually in the FARs, but has been affirmed in the FAA's legal "interpretations".) --Gary |
#23
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A couple of questions about IPC
On 02/10/06 05:31, Gary Drescher wrote:
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:23:33 -0800, Mark Hansen wrote: Yes, but I didn't think this 'monkey' was allowed to use the time toward IR currency. If you review 61.57 regarding instrument currency, you will see that the requirements are for logging flight under actual or simulated instrument conditions. The requirements for logging are merely that you be sole manipulator of the controls. So yes, the non-current pilot can manipulate the controls and log PIC in IMC, while the IR pilot acts as PIC, but cannot log PIC while in IMC. Yup. Or alternatively, the PIC can log PIC time, and the non-current pilot can log the approaches, but not log PIC time. (The PIC's ability to log PIC time--as long as the sole manipulator doesn't also do so--isn't actually in the FARs, but has been affirmed in the FAA's legal "interpretations".) --Gary Perhaps I'm still a little confused here. If I get a safety pilot who agrees to act as pilot in command of the flight, that pilot will be able to log the time as PIC. If I am sole manipulator of the controls, then I can log the time as PIC as per FAR 61.51(e)(i) In this case, we would both be logging PIC, although for different reasons. Is this wrong? When flying in VMC and using a view limiting device, the safety pilot is considered a required crew member, and as such can decide to act as PIC or SIC. However, I would think this is not the case when flying in IMC, as the safety pilot must be PIC (because the pilot flying is not IMC current). Is this wrong? If this is covered by one of the Chief Counsel written opinions, can you please provide a reference to it? I have a hard time finding them. Thanks, -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#24
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A couple of questions about IPC
On 02/10/06 05:20, Gary Drescher wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... On 02/09/06 07:45, Gary Drescher wrote: "three-eight-hotel" wrote in message oups.com... You have 6 months after your currency lapses to become current, without having to do an IPC... You are not legal to fly IFR, but you may take a safety pilot up with you and become current again. If you miss the 6 month window to become current, you will have to perform an IPC. I'm sure if I stated that incorrectly or unclearly, someone will jump in to correct me... ;-) No error, but one addition may be useful: another alternative is to fly IFR and do the approaches in IMC, but with another pilot (who's IFR-current) acting as PIC. --Gary Wait a tick ;-) Are you saying that if you're beyond the 6-month currency, that you can fly in actual IMC and all you need is an IR- current safety pilot - not a CFII? In this case, the IR-current pilot isn't functioning as "safety pilot". That's the term for a traffic-spotting pilot in VMC when the pilot doing the flying is wearing a hood. In my scenario, there's no hood and no safety pilot--just another pilot acting as PIC. Yes. My confusion was that my instructor told me that when the IR pilot was not IMC current, and wanted to perform the actions to regain currency in actual IMC (not simulated) that the person in the right seat had to be a CFII. However, after the discussions in the other parts of this thread and more looking through the FARs, I see no evidence for this and now believe that my instructor was wrong. Perhaps what he meant to say was "A CFII would be more experienced in that situation, and so it would be safer, etc.". .... it wouldn't be the first time I was given an opinion by the CFII which was represented a fact/rule. --Gary -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#25
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A couple of questions about IPC
This same topic came up in a post a few months back, where there seemed
to be a lot of gray area around "logging" PIC time. I don't recall ever seeing a clear response as to what the definitive regs around logging PIC are supposed to mean. I am as interested as you, and I'm sure as are others, as to when we can legally log PIC time (in the stated circumstances), both as a safety pilot, and as the sole manipulators fo the controls. Best Regards, Todd |
#26
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A couple of questions about IPC
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
... When flying in VMC and using a view limiting device, the safety pilot is considered a required crew member, and as such can decide to act as PIC or SIC. Correct. And because the flight is construed to require multiple crew members, the safety pilot (if acting as PIC) can log PIC time (in addition to the sole manipulator doing so), according to 61.51e1iii. However, I would think this is not the case when flying in IMC, as the safety pilot must be PIC (because the pilot flying is not IMC current). In the IMC scenario, there is no safety pilot, and there is only one required crew member (the PIC). Under those circumstances, merely acting as PIC does not entitle the pilot to log PIC time (acting as PIC is not one of the three conditions listed in 61.51e1 as the *only* conditions that allow PIC time to be logged). Nonetheless, the FAA has reportedly said that a pilot acting as PIC (even when just one crewmember is required) can log PIC time if the sole manipulator does not or cannot. If this is covered by one of the Chief Counsel written opinions, can you please provide a reference to it? That's certainly a reasonable question, but they're not readily available as far as I know; they circulate mainly as Usenet chain mail. So my own policy when a purported Chief Counsel opinion flatly contradicts the FARs is just to follow the FARs. --Gary |
#27
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A couple of questions about IPC
On 02/10/06 08:54, Gary Drescher wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... When flying in VMC and using a view limiting device, the safety pilot is considered a required crew member, and as such can decide to act as PIC or SIC. Correct. And because the flight is construed to require multiple crew members, the safety pilot (if acting as PIC) can log PIC time (in addition to the sole manipulator doing so), according to 61.51e1iii. However, I would think this is not the case when flying in IMC, as the safety pilot must be PIC (because the pilot flying is not IMC current). In the IMC scenario, there is no safety pilot, and there is only one required crew member (the PIC). Under those circumstances, merely acting as PIC does not entitle the pilot to log PIC time (acting as PIC is not one of the three conditions listed in 61.51e1 as the *only* conditions that allow PIC time to be logged). Nonetheless, the FAA has reportedly said that a pilot acting as PIC (even when just one crewmember is required) can log PIC time if the sole manipulator does not or cannot. Thank you, Gary. This is certainly very clear, although it is not what I previously understood. I wonder if the Chief Counsel simply hasn't been asked this specific case: - IMC conditions - Pilot flying is not IMC current - Pilot flying is sole manipulator of the controls, and thus logs PIC - Pilot not flying is acting PIC (required because the pilot flying is not IMC current) and so logs PIC Perhaps what is confusing me is that I thought that any pilot "acting" as PIC was entitled to log the time as PIC. Your statement to the contrary, above, is the first time I've ever heard that. Thanks again - this is a great discussion! If this is covered by one of the Chief Counsel written opinions, can you please provide a reference to it? That's certainly a reasonable question, but they're not readily available as far as I know; they circulate mainly as Usenet chain mail. So my own policy when a purported Chief Counsel opinion flatly contradicts the FARs is just to follow the FARs. --Gary -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#28
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A couple of questions about IPC
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
... On 02/10/06 08:54, Gary Drescher wrote: In the IMC scenario, there is no safety pilot, and there is only one required crew member (the PIC). Under those circumstances, merely acting as PIC does not entitle the pilot to log PIC time (acting as PIC is not one of the three conditions listed in 61.51e1 as the *only* conditions that allow PIC time to be logged). Nonetheless, the FAA has reportedly said that a pilot acting as PIC (even when just one crewmember is required) can log PIC time if the sole manipulator does not or cannot. Thank you, Gary. This is certainly very clear, although it is not what I previously understood. I wonder if the Chief Counsel simply hasn't been asked this specific case: - IMC conditions - Pilot flying is not IMC current - Pilot flying is sole manipulator of the controls, and thus logs PIC - Pilot not flying is acting PIC (required because the pilot flying is not IMC current) and so logs PIC I'd guess that the Chief Counsel hasn't addressed that particular combination of circumstances. But even flying VFR with no instrument practice, you can have a pilot acting as PIC and another pilot acting as sole manipulator (who may or may not be qualified to be PIC for that flight). There's nothing special about being in IMC or being IFR that bears on the PIC-logging questions for such a flight, so there's no need for the FAA to separately address those specific circumstances. Perhaps what is confusing me is that I thought that any pilot "acting" as PIC was entitled to log the time as PIC. Nope, 61.51e1 clearly states the contrary (even though it's partially contradicted by the FAA's "interpretations"). Thanks again - this is a great discussion! You're welcome! Perhaps if enough pilots keep raising this question, the FAA will eventually fix either the FARs or the Chief Counsel opinions. --Gary |
#29
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A couple of questions about IPC
I think I'm clear now, but wanted to clarify a point from the last post
- Pilot not flying is acting PIC (required because the pilot flying is not IMC current) and so logs PIC Was meant to be posted as a question to the Chief Counsel and not as a statement of understanding, right? Acting PIC (not flying) may NOT log PIC, based on what I'm hearing and reading in other searches... From the following link (http://www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html) I snipped a section regarding this specific situation... ========= Begin Snip ========== A non-instrument-rated private pilot (but rated in the aircraft category and class) flies with another private pilot who is instrument rated, on an IFR flight plan in IMC conditions. The non-IFR pilot manipulates the flight controls for the entire flight. The IFR pilot acts as PIC, and is required to be the PIC since he/she is the only pilot appropriately rated to act as PIC under IFR, but logs no flight time. Why? The instrument-rated pilot did not manipulate the flight controls and is not acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot. The non-IFR pilot may log PIC time for the entire flight since he/she was the sole manipulator of the flight controlsof an aircraft for whih he/she is rated. See legal opinion # 5 for details. This legal opinion is written to answer a question involving a CFII as the PIC, but the opinion later states "The other pilot must be the PIC, ....", and does not impose a requirement to hold an instructor certificate. Also, see legal opinion # 6 , under "TAB AERO Question # 2" which further clarifies the fact that a non-rated pilot can manipulate the controls under IFR. This represents no change from the old rules. ========= End Snip ========== Best Regards, Todd |
#30
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A couple of questions about IPC
On 02/10/06 09:35, Gary Drescher wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... On 02/10/06 08:54, Gary Drescher wrote: In the IMC scenario, there is no safety pilot, and there is only one required crew member (the PIC). Under those circumstances, merely acting as PIC does not entitle the pilot to log PIC time (acting as PIC is not one of the three conditions listed in 61.51e1 as the *only* conditions that allow PIC time to be logged). Nonetheless, the FAA has reportedly said that a pilot acting as PIC (even when just one crewmember is required) can log PIC time if the sole manipulator does not or cannot. Thank you, Gary. This is certainly very clear, although it is not what I previously understood. I wonder if the Chief Counsel simply hasn't been asked this specific case: - IMC conditions - Pilot flying is not IMC current - Pilot flying is sole manipulator of the controls, and thus logs PIC - Pilot not flying is acting PIC (required because the pilot flying is not IMC current) and so logs PIC I'd guess that the Chief Counsel hasn't addressed that particular combination of circumstances. But even flying VFR with no instrument practice, you can have a pilot acting as PIC and another pilot acting as sole manipulator (who may or may not be qualified to be PIC for that flight). There's nothing special about being in IMC or being IFR that bears on the PIC-logging questions for such a flight, so there's no need for the FAA to separately address those specific circumstances. Perhaps what is confusing me is that I thought that any pilot "acting" as PIC was entitled to log the time as PIC. Nope, 61.51e1 clearly states the contrary (even though it's partially contradicted by the FAA's "interpretations"). 61.51(e)(iii) (what I think you meant above) states: "Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." It would be possible for someone to interpret "... the regulations under which the flight is conducted" to indicate that because the pilot flying cannot legally fly in IMC, due to currency, that the pilot not flying is required. Okay ... I'm ready ;-) Thanks again - this is a great discussion! You're welcome! Perhaps if enough pilots keep raising this question, the FAA will eventually fix either the FARs or the Chief Counsel opinions. --Gary -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
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