A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Wingrunner Checklist



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 6th 13, 04:18 PM
Squeaky Squeaky is offline
Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2011
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony[_5_] View Post
of course the buck stops with the pilot but the wingrunner, towpilot and any knowledgable bystanders are all part of the safety net. an american cheese model of safety does not work, we have swiss cheese. case in point, Sean Fidler (F2) who does like to drive us all crazy in the winter, managed to save a couple pilots lives at Uvalde as they nearly took off with the cover on their horizontal stabilizer. the wing runner didn't notice, the two presumably experienced pilots didn't notice, and their presumably well trained crew missed it. sometimes you need a lot of layers of swiss chees before all the holes were filled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuTBQIb721g
Agree,

But even more so, most of us operate from clubs, and we want the club to remain strong and in operation, and part of that is ensuring the club is a professional, safe and dependable operation. This helps with insurance costs directly and costs of club aircraft or facilities, but also helps with perception of the operations at the club, perceptions or feelings people have about the culture of the club, and lastly it's important to the sport itself to entice new piltos, keep the FAA at bay, and to ensure someone else has our six.

This includes wing runners going over the major things that can cause an emergency in one of the phases of flight where soaring pilots have them the most: Take-offs. Canopies and spoilers locked, dollies and covers removed, pattern is deconflicted for takeoffs and landings.

While no one doubts the PIC is ultimately responsible for this, having the wing runner check these things is not an onerous task, and I as Duty officer say it out loud and ask my ADO's to do the same, as a last safety and sanity check. Our club is even starting to consider having the duty crew ask private ships is they accomplished a critical assembly and/or positive control check as a last chance reminder as well. It's not intrusive, and it's not out of bounds--it's just a help which takes no time and could save an incident or accident.

I hope no one is against prevention.

Cheers
Squeak
  #12  
Old March 6th 13, 09:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Clay[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Wingrunner Checklist

But if you know someone else is going to run through a checklist, doesn't that make it slightly less likely you will run through yours? What if the wingrunner interrupts you while you're running thru your own checklist? Hey, I'm not against prevention and am not gonna fall on my sword over this, but I just wonder if we're not engineering a subtle shift in psychology here.. I could be totally wrong.
  #13  
Old March 6th 13, 10:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,224
Default Wingrunner Checklist

On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:59:48 -0800, Clay wrote:

But if you know someone else is going to run through a checklist,
doesn't that make it slightly less likely you will run through yours?
What if the wingrunner interrupts you while you're running thru your own
checklist? Hey, I'm not against prevention and am not gonna fall on my
sword over this, but I just wonder if we're not engineering a subtle
shift in psychology here. I could be totally wrong.


We encourage our launch marshals and their assistants to ask "Brakes
locked?" if the pilot didn't say "Brakes locked immediately asking for
"Cable on". IMO, if you're going to use such a procedure, thats the place
to do so, NOT earlier when the pilot is still running through his
checklist, thinking about eventualities, etc.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #14  
Old March 7th 13, 01:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jamie Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Wingrunner Checklist

After taking the thoughtful comments into account from this forum, members of our club and gliding safety experts, we have created the following concept that we plan to test at our club:

https://docs.google.com/presentation...d.gb128aed1_00

The dialogue between the glider pilot and the wingrunner is 12 words (if spoilers are not deployed during the early takeoff roll).

In response to some of the criticisms posted in this forum:

"Clear Pattern" does not mean there are not aircraft in the pattern. Those words are used for the sake of simplicity. It really means the pattern is clear enough for the launch. Any suggestions on an alternate phrase (short & sweet) to relay that meaning are welcome.

We do require the SSF wingrunner course for all new members.

Most of the CATP items are the pilot's primary responsibility that SHOULD have already been accomplished. This wingrunner checklist is a backup that utilizes another resource to help to catch the killer items. It is silly to think that we will blame the wingrunner for an accident. On the contrary, it is foolish to not have a backup when it is so simple to do. CRM and SPRM (Crew Resource Management and Single Pilot Resource Management) relies on incorporating help from all available resources. The FAA requires it, it increases safety and is easy to do in many situations like this one.

There is no shift in responsibility here. It is expected that the glider pilot will complete their checklist before CATP occurs. See link above for more details on timing.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Jamie Shore
scoh.org




  #15  
Old March 7th 13, 02:54 PM
Squeaky Squeaky is offline
Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2011
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay[_4_] View Post
But if you know someone else is going to run through a checklist, doesn't that make it slightly less likely you will run through yours? What if the wingrunner interrupts you while you're running thru your own checklist? Hey, I'm not against prevention and am not gonna fall on my sword over this, but I just wonder if we're not engineering a subtle shift in psychology here.. I could be totally wrong.
I don't and I do not see that from most club members.

Overall, it's a matter of timing and not interupting Pilots in their routines. As Pilots stage their aircraft is when they are asked about Critical assembly and Positive control checks. When pilots are ready, and hooked up, as I walk to the wing and get ready to lift it, I look over their aircraft and the pattern. At Thumbs Up, I look and say loud enough for the pilot to hear: "Dolly's removed, Canopy and Spoilers locked, Pattern clear." At which point I signal to take up slack. Adds maybe 5 second to the process...
  #16  
Old March 7th 13, 07:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default Wingrunner Checklist

On Tuesday, 5 March 2013 11:51:55 UTC, Jamie Shore wrote:
My club is considering implementing a wing runner checklist. The wing runner would perform this mental checklist at some point before they give the Begin Takeoff signal.



"CATP"



Canopy....CLOSED AND LOCKED (to the best of their judgement)

Airbrakes....CLOSED AND LOCKED (to the best of their judgement)

Taildolly.....REMOVED

Pattern.....CLEAR



A FEW QUESTIONS....

1. I heard about this at the 2012 SSA convention in Reno. Does anybody know which club has implemented the checklist?



2. Have any of you implemented this or a similar wingrunner checklist?



3. Pros & Cons?



Thanks,

Jamie Shore


Why would you do this after attaching the rope/cable rather than before? In the UK it is normal practise for the wingrunner to ask 'Brakes closed and locked?' before attaching. The All Clear obviously comes later.
  #17  
Old March 7th 13, 10:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jamie Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Wingrunner Checklist

I see the value in reviewing items after rope hook up. But...

In the summer in our area it is normal to be above 100 F and very high humidity and the conditions are unbearable under the canopy and at rest. Sweat pouring into your eyes becomes a risk that may not exist in other less hot/humid parts of the world.
  #18  
Old March 17th 13, 01:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default Wingrunner Checklist

I'm coming in late on this one but on the subject of beginning the takeoff roll with dive brakes extended, maybe it's worth repeating some old advice. At least on Standard Class gliders (i.e., no flap handle), the easy way to reassure wing runners (and tow pilots) that the pilot hasn't simply forgotten to close/lock the brakes is to cycle them in and out repeatedly as the slack comes out of the rope. Yeah, it's a bit of a hassle but as the rope tightens you can hold them out to actuate the wheel brake if that's desired.

By now, everyone including the ops director, wing runner, tow pilot, spectators, the pilots behind you, and birds flying overhead will be aware that you're doing it intentionally and not forgetfully. And if the wing runner looks puzzled, I just cycle them one more time after the thumbs up signal.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Checklist a[_3_] Piloting 1 May 26th 11 10:19 PM
Checklist Larry D. Cosby Piloting 148 March 29th 08 05:10 AM
Checklist use Private Piloting 2 February 12th 08 09:25 PM
747-100 Checklist Bartscher General Aviation 0 December 18th 04 08:20 PM
C-180 100 hr checklist ConchyJoe Owning 1 May 3rd 04 11:53 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.