Iran's nuclear program

On 11 Aug 2004 20:47:10 -0700, (Thelasian) wrote:

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 10 Aug 2004 09:22:47 -0700, (Thelasian) wrote:

Don't forget the rest of the Security Council who voted fo rthe
sanctions regime.

Not quite. The "no fly zones" for example were never approved by the
UNSC, and were only enforced by the UK and US. The rest of the UNSC
didn't say or do anything about it though.

Err, the No Fly Zones had bugger all to do with the sanctions, which
*were* approved by the UNSC.

The NFZs were to prevent (or at least hinder) Saddam massacring the
Kurds and Shiites, unfortunately with little success.

Just about all teh major Western Powers - US political support,
Russian and French weapons, no doubt us Evil Brits (tm) had some hand
in it as well.


Oh they most certainly did - check out the Scott Inquiry.

Good point, I'd forgotten about "Supergun"

Peter Kemp

"Jarg" wrote in message om...
"Thelasian" wrote in message
m...

Not a bad idea, they are one of the worst governments left on the
planet!


Except for say Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Israel, and lots of other
US-allied repressive racist tyrannies....


First, I said one of the worst.. Second, the government of Israel, though
not without flaws, is orders of magnitude better than that of Iran,


Yes, and I am sure the 6 million Palestinians who were driven out of
their homes and refused their rights under the Geneva Convention would
totally agree.


demonstrated by the relative freedom and prosperity its citizens enjoy.

You mean JEWISH citizens. Even Arab citizens of Israel are widely
discriminated against in the JEWISH homeland.

for Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan, well you had to really dig into the muck to
find comparable nations didn't you!?


Not really. In fact I could point out the fact that up to a few years
ago that the US of A was conducting human nuclear radition experiments
on unsuspecting psychiatric patients without their knowledge or
approval, and that our military was training torturers and assassins
at the School of Americas.

Talk about "supporting terrorism"!!!

Stop SPAM wrote in message ...
Thelasian wrote:
Sure, it "could" but so could my pocket calculator.

If you're going to make specious arguments that LWRs (and your pocket
calculator) can be considered as dual-use technology, then, once again

You seem to be missing the point. Iran's LWR at Bushehr HAS ALREADY
BEEN characterized as 'dual use' technlogy. That's why the US opposes
it. The US has SPECIFICALLY said that Bushehr can be used to make
nuclear weapons because supposedly the technologists who run the
reactor COULD use their knowledge to build bombs, and the fuel rods
COULD be reprocessed to extract plutonium. That's my whole point - ANY
technology can be (mis)characterized as "could be used to make nukes"
- don't blame me for the mischaracterization, I am just pointing it
out.


And because it is Iran's fundamental right to have access to the technology.

If you believe in this statement, then I believe in the statement that
it is the right and responsibility of the rest of the world - through
the UN and the IAEA, in this case - to deny that 'right' to countries
believed to be too unstable


Actually, Iran is pretty stable, and anyway the NPT says "inalienable
right...without discrimination" and doesn't say anything about
"stable" and furthermore, its not the "rest of the world" that's
hassling Iran, its the US, Israel, and EU3. Several other countries
support Iran, like the entire Non0Aligned Nations, which is why the US
hasn't been able to get its way on the IAEA Board.


And might I inquire from what source or document this "fundamental
right" derives? I'm not aware of anything in the UN documents that
provides this "fundamental right" to all countries.


The fundamental right to have nuclear technology is recognized in the
NPT itself (note I said recognized, not derived from) - for example
the Preamble:

"Affirming the principle that the benefits of peaceful applications of
nuclear technology, including any technological by-products which may
be derived by nuclear-weapon States from the development of nuclear
explosive devices, should be available for peaceful purposes to all
Parties of the Treaty, whether nuclear-weapon or non-nuclear weapon
States"


Iran's right to have nuclear technology is derived from the same
source as the US's right to have it, or chinas, or Japans or Russia -
there is no law of nature that says some can and some can't.


A country's "fundamental rights" end where it's actions or planned
actions concerns its neighboring countries (more broadly speaking in
this day and age than past) enough for them to act to counter it.

I see - so might is right. All the more reason for nations to seek
nuclear weapons then.


See, for example: "It has been argued here that Article 51 of the
Charter of the UN includes the customary international law right of
anticipatory self-defense... Israel acted within those limits... This
particular use of force constituted an appropriate application of the
right of anticipatory self-defense in international law." from
"Self-Defense in International Law: The Israeli Raid on the Iraqi
Nuclear Reactor", Timothy L. H. McCormack, Palgrave Macmillan, 1996, p.
302.

Well, not quite. Anticipatory self-defense requires an "imminent
threat" and anyway, if Israel has this right, then any Iraqi attack on
Israel can also be cast in the same light, right? That's the problem
with twisting the law - it can twist both ways.

A while back denyev claimed the Nazis detonated 2 atomic devices in 1945 one
of
which was in a highly populated area.

Do you call a place that even Wehrmact personal were not allowed to enter a
"highly populated " area ?

You seem to be missing the point. Iran's LWR at Bushehr HAS ALREADY
BEEN characterized as 'dual use' technlogy. That's why the US opposes
it.

Hi,
lets be honest here. Its not an issue of dual use equipment so much
as its pretty obvious Eyeran wants to build nuclear weapons with the
knowledge/equipment/material aquired from foreign (or local for that
matter) sources. Eyeran is signatory to the NPT which bars countries from
pursuing a nuclear weapons program in exchange for dual use nuclear
technology.

Eyeran has every right to develop its civil nuclear industry under the NPT
but as you I'm sure know, that isn't its only objective.

Its of course true that the world order, by human nature, is inherently
unfair. That nations seek to aquire n-weapons but seek to deny it to
others..etc.

This is so stupid it is difficult to even know where to start so I won't.


Let me help you,
1861 Ft.Sumter incident (evil Confederates attacked Ft.sumter.Starting of Civil
WAr)
1898 Maine incident (Evil Spaniards destroyed USS Maine.US-Spanish war)
1941 Pearl Harbor.(Evil Japs attacked Pearl Harbor and destroyed relics from
WWI.US enters WWII on Anglo side)
1961 Operation Northwoods.(Evil Cubans supposed to hijack planes and use them
as cruise misilles aganist US civilian targets.Public outcry for revenge
expected to justify the invasion of Cuba.JFK killed Operation Northwoods but he
got killed soon after too)
2001 9/11 (Evil Arabs used commercial planes to attack US targets.The rest is
the history)

If you cannot use Republican Guards to silence the majority like SH,then you
must use PSYOPs .

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 11 Aug 2004 20:47:10 -0700, (Thelasian) wrote:

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 10 Aug 2004 09:22:47 -0700, (Thelasian) wrote:

Don't forget the rest of the Security Council who voted fo rthe
sanctions regime.

Not quite. The "no fly zones" for example were never approved by the
UNSC, and were only enforced by the UK and US. The rest of the UNSC
didn't say or do anything about it though.

Err, the No Fly Zones had bugger all to do with the sanctions, which
*were* approved by the UNSC.



Err, no they were not. The no-fly zones were not approved by the UNSC.
And whatever the UNSC may or may not have done is no excuse for the
fact that the US quite intentionally armed Saddam and helped him
masscre people, then engaged in the policy of sanctions which resulted
in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children according to
UNICEF, and Madame Albright said it was all worth it.





The NFZs were to prevent (or at least hinder) Saddam massacring the
Kurds and Shiites, unfortunately with little success.

Just about all teh major Western Powers - US political support,
Russian and French weapons, no doubt us Evil Brits (tm) had some hand
in it as well.


Oh they most certainly did - check out the Scott Inquiry.

Good point, I'd forgotten about "Supergun"

Peter Kemp

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
This is so stupid it is difficult to even know where to start so I won't.


Let me help you,
1861 Ft.Sumter incident (evil Confederates attacked Ft.sumter.Starting of
Civil
WAr)
1898 Maine incident (Evil Spaniards destroyed USS Maine.US-Spanish war)
1941 Pearl Harbor.(Evil Japs attacked Pearl Harbor and destroyed relics
from
WWI.US enters WWII on Anglo side)
1961 Operation Northwoods.(Evil Cubans supposed to hijack planes and use
them
as cruise misilles aganist US civilian targets.Public outcry for revenge
expected to justify the invasion of Cuba.JFK killed Operation Northwoods
but he
got killed soon after too)
2001 9/11 (Evil Arabs used commercial planes to attack US targets.The
rest is
the history)

If you cannot use Republican Guards to silence the majority like SH,then
you
must use PSYOPs .


So you think the CIA attacked Fort Sumter

That figures

Keith

From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/13/2004 3:40 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Denyav" wrote in message
...
This is so stupid it is difficult to even know where to start so I won't.


Let me help you,
1861 Ft.Sumter incident (evil Confederates attacked Ft.sumter.Starting of
Civil
WAr)
1898 Maine incident (Evil Spaniards destroyed USS Maine.US-Spanish war)
1941 Pearl Harbor.(Evil Japs attacked Pearl Harbor and destroyed relics
from
WWI.US enters WWII on Anglo side)
1961 Operation Northwoods.(Evil Cubans supposed to hijack planes and use
them
as cruise misilles aganist US civilian targets.Public outcry for revenge
expected to justify the invasion of Cuba.JFK killed Operation Northwoods
but he
got killed soon after too)
2001 9/11 (Evil Arabs used commercial planes to attack US targets.The
rest is
the history)

If you cannot use Republican Guards to silence the majority like SH,then
you
must use PSYOPs .


So you think the CIA attacked Fort Sumter

That figures

Keith

Denyev has pulled this gag before. If you ask him to prove it he can't so he
just repeats the same lies.

Want a real laugh ask him about the two atomic bombs the Nazis tested and how
the U.S. couldn't have built atomic bombs without using Nazi parts and weapons
grade uranium. Apparently the Manhatten Project produced no workable designs
and no weapons grade uranium. To prove Nazi parts were used he will present you
with a photograph of Fat Man with German markings only he can see never mind
the Nazis produced no plutonium.

This, of all his fantasies, is my favourite. It's in the same genre as maron's
"the USAF was responsible for 9/11," teuton's UFOs and Nazi secrets only he
knows, tarver's optical nukes, art's "if you didn't serve in combat your
service was meaningless and you are not a veteran"...etc.

Some energetic individual should publish a book of some of the delusions like
these.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Keith Willshaw"


Denyev has pulled this gag before. If you ask him to prove it he can't so
he
just repeats the same lies.

Want a real laugh ask him about the two atomic bombs the Nazis tested and
how
the U.S. couldn't have built atomic bombs without using Nazi parts and
weapons
grade uranium. Apparently the Manhatten Project produced no workable
designs
and no weapons grade uranium. To prove Nazi parts were used he will
present you
with a photograph of Fat Man with German markings only he can see never
mind
the Nazis produced no plutonium.


I've been through all this with him in excruciating detail.
His usual response is that the proof is in documents
so sekrit nobody has ever actually seen them.

Then he retreats into his Hans Kammler did it in Joanastal
fantasy. This involves Nazi UFO's with antigravity engines
armed with nuclear weapons. They must have been real duffers
to let us mere mortals beat them with nothing more than P-51's, Spitfires,
B-17's and Lancasters

Keith


Keith





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