Night Flying. How many PPSEL pilots excersie night priveledges?

wrote in message ...
Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
very few lights to shine the way.

David, et al:

Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.

It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
frequently) or a Pilatus.

"Blanche" wrote in message ...
wrote in message ...
Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
very few lights to shine the way.

David, et al:

Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.

It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
frequently) or a Pilatus.


Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
Many people also think that New York state is one big city
of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
reach up and grab you if your not careful.

David

I'm not experienced but I've been up at night as PIC a few times, first
on local sight-seeing, then a cross-country, always ending at a
familiar airport.

It strikes me that there are some risks that you need to accept and/or
mitigate if you want to fly at night, such as the difficulty of finding
a decent emergency landing area if you have engine failure out of range
of an airport. However, I have been flying at night under the following
conditions:

1. Very clear weather
2. Generous excess fuel
3. 100% navigational confidence, coming from a combination of
familiarity with the area and having both GPS and VORs to use.
4. Remembering the need to rely heavily on instruments, especially for
attitude control.

I think some VFR pilots are more comfortable using instruments and
ignoring sensations than others. I've flown IMC with instructors (with
me doing all the flying) and I've found it fairly easy to fly on
instruments. Not to say that I think I think I'm immune to
disorientation, but maybe as part of the video game generation,
instrument flying comes a bit more naturally.

One thing I have felt is that those first few moments after take-off,
as you leave the airport boundary and take off into the inky-black sky,
suddenly losing all visual references, are lonely and potentially
disorientating moments - at a time when you are close to the ground and
cannot afford disorientation. It's easy to deal with - just look at the
attitude indicator, make sure the wings are level, pitch for Vy, check
the airspeed, etc. But it feels that way whether you are taking off to
go round the pattern at your local airport or heading off on a long
cross country, so mentally prepare yourself for that scary moment and
you'll be fine.

Tom


FLAV8R wrote:
"Blanche" wrote in message ...
wrote in message ...
Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
very few lights to shine the way.

David, et al:

Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.

It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
frequently) or a Pilatus.


Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
Many people also think that New York state is one big city
of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
reach up and grab you if your not careful.

David

In article , FLAV8R wrote:

Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
Many people also think that New York state is one big city
of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
reach up and grab you if your not careful.

Last spring I took a friend from Denver to Sidney (Cabelas trip).
During the day, definitely rural and agriculture. Looked absolutely
empty except for the light traffic on I-76, she observed.

We came home in the evening (after dark). Jeanne was completely
amazed at the quantity of lights. Big city lights? No. But there
were no large patches of complete darkness. Gives an new perspective
on the number of people (homes, etc) in "rural America".

I think most states are primarily agricultural with relatively small
urban pockets -- well, not the LA Basin area, but that's another
issue entirely.

Going back to the original discussion of night flying. Out here in
the west, flying at night is the best time in the summer. Too hot
(let's hear it for Density Altitude!) during the day.

Personally, I love flying at night. Among other advantages, it's
much easier to see other aircraft -- gotta love those nav lights.
I do have a personal limitation, tho. I do not fly a route at
night that I haven't flown in day, VFR. Perhaps a bit more limiting,
but to me, the advantage is that I'm (slightly) more familiar with
the area and know where the "outs" are going to be.

And never, never, never, NEVER night flying over the mountains.
If I can't be on the east side of the Rockies by dusk, I park the
aircraft and find a place to sleep until the morning.

LOVE IT!

Severe clear after a snow fall, lights reflecting off the snow with a
full moon..

You get the picture...

But... know where you are ALL the time, be ready to get on the
instruments at anytime....

Dave



On 9 Dec 2006 10:40:50 -0800, wrote:

I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
my training as required for certification.

I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
the city lights that night flying offers.

How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
safely from getting too close to anything?

I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
night flying.

How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Flying at night is lovely, and -- as many have mentioned -- a full moon
on a snow-covered landscape is fantastic. (And almost as bright as
daytime, once your eyes adjust.)

That said, Mary and I have made a conscious decision not to fly at
night until the kids are grown. We occasionally have to fly at night,
and enjoy it -- but we do our best to make plans that avoid night
flights.

Why? Because your options are pretty limited if your engine fails on a
dark night, and our kids need us. Around here, you would just aim the
plane for a dark spot, and hope for the best. NOT a good plan, in my
opinion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I have to second many of Jay's points. In my younger, less experienced
times, I did a LOT of night flying (winter in mid-west, you either take
time off or fly at night). I loved it - beautiful sights, smooth air,
absolutely magical. Two years ago, I got the opportunity to land
engine out in a wheat field (during the day). Perfect touch down just
over the trees and just short of the road/ditch. No damage at all to
the plane or occupants. Pulled the wings, towed her to the nearest
airport, replaced an intake gasket and flew her home (oh yeah, removed
1/2 lb of wheat from the pitot). Anway, night flight has taken on a
new dimension since. It's amazing the "auto-rough" on the engine that
sets in about sunset. An off-field landing at night is something I
NEVER want to do. Flying here on full-moon or near full moon nights is
pretty easy, but I avoid overcast and/or sliver moon nights if at all
possible. I find myself constantly tracking "nearest airport" and
flying much higher as well as spending too much time on instruments
(engine in particular) and have to force myself to keep eyes out of the
plane (and on the sky instead of just the next potential landing spot).
I got back on the horse, but am a bit more skittish now for sure.
Jeff

PS - An actual off-field landing is something a sim will NEVER really
prepare you for. It's also something that's surprisingly different
than all of your practice power-outs. All that practice ingrains
excellent responses and instills the correct reactions, but there is a
"come to Jesus" moment when it's real. I discovered, for the first
time in my life, that I get REALLY bad lower back spasms under enough
stress :^). Never had a sim or had a practice flight indicate that
would happen :^).

Jay Honeck wrote:
How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Flying at night is lovely, and -- as many have mentioned -- a full moon
on a snow-covered landscape is fantastic. (And almost as bright as
daytime, once your eyes adjust.)

That said, Mary and I have made a conscious decision not to fly at
night until the kids are grown. We occasionally have to fly at night,
and enjoy it -- but we do our best to make plans that avoid night
flights.

Why? Because your options are pretty limited if your engine fails on a
dark night, and our kids need us. Around here, you would just aim the
plane for a dark spot, and hope for the best. NOT a good plan, in my
opinion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

180 of my 2900 hours are night hours. I do usually fly higher and have
higher weather minimums at night.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




wrote:
I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
my training as required for certification.

I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
the city lights that night flying offers.

How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
safely from getting too close to anything?

I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
night flying.

With 900 hours, I have 200 at night, and have no hesitation about flying
at night. The most beautiful flights I've had were at night. One in
particular stands out - returning from the (SF) Bay area to the (LA)
Basin, heading for El Monte (EMT). We came across the Gorman Pass at
about four in the morning after flying at 11,500 feet over the desert,
and when we came over the mountains, the entire LA Basin was lit up
pretty much horizon to horizon on one of those rare "clear and infinity"
nights. I pitched down for a half hour descent right into the center of it.

It was an experience that cannot be reduced to words.

Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
safely from getting too close to anything?

I fly higher at night, making sure I have more than a thousand feet
clearance above anything within lots of miles (I generally use the
maximum elevation figures in the quadrants I'm flying through as a
guide). Daytime I'm happy to fly below towers, hills, and such, and
make sure I spot them as they go by. At night I won't go anywhere near
that low - it would be suicide. Altitude is your friend, as is flight
planning and situation awareness.

I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
the city lights that night flying offers.

The Bay Area has lots of lights. Navigation is pretty easy. Beware of
the hills (easy to see; they are dark) because they have towers (not so
easy to see because even though they are supposed to be lighted, they
might not be and you don't want to be in the papers!)

Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

When flight planning, I use different landmarks at night. A lake in the
wilderness won't show up easily at night, but is great in the day. A
freeway is great at night, but may be easy to miss in the day. The
shapes of cities and towns is easy to see at night, as is air traffic.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

wrote in message
ups.com

How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

As with many things in aviation and life, it depends on the person as to how
long it takes to get comfortable at night. Personally, I don't recall ever
being uncomfortable, but I do notice a bit more attentiveness to detail when
I'm flying at night. Things like holding altitude and scanning flight and
engine instruments take on a bit more importance for me after the sun
disappears.

Navigating at night is more difficult - and easier. Navigation techniques
are the same as during the day, but you obviously need to use different
landmarks. Also, it seems you can see *much* farther at night than during
the day - mainly due to city lights being visible from much farther away
(assuming, of course, you're in an area with city/town lights to be seen).
This can be very helpful and confusing at the same time until you recognize
the layouts of various towns/cities. The town you think is Homeville may
actually be the city 30 miles away from home.

Many planes these days have a GPS (either panel-mounted or handheld) to
greatly ease navigation at night. If not, radio navaids are very handy.

Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

I just pick different landmarks - usually towns or airports - when flying
visually.

Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
safely from getting too close to anything?

I don't tend to fly any higher at night, but I tend to fly higher than many
others during the day. It's rare I need to be on the lookout for towers or
obstructions at my altitude even when I'm flying day VFR. I fly in the
mid-Atlantic and there is usually an airport within gliding distance should
the need arise.

I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do
differently at night versus the day and how many of you actually take
advantage of night flying.

I try to stay proficient at night for a few reasons. First, I find night
flight very enjoyable. During the summer it's much smoother at night. If
you're flying to get someplace and flying IFR, there are far fewer planes in
the sky at night meaning you can usually get more direct routing. I find it
more peaceful and I like how the landscape is lit up at night. My favorite
time to fly is dusk when there's just enough light to see ground detail, but
dark enough for streetlights and the like to come on to highlight structures
and highways. I also tend to fly much more for utilitarian than recreational
reasons lately and being proficient at night flight allows much greater
flexibility in schedules.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
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