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GOAT ASW20



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 8th 21, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
MQ
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Posts: 17
Default GOAT ASW20

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.

I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.

So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.

Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob

I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ-5C
  #22  
Old January 8th 21, 11:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 281
Default GOAT ASW20

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.

I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.

So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.

Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob

I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ-5C


Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20.. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!
  #23  
Old January 8th 21, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default GOAT ASW20

On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.

I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.

So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob

I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ-5C


Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!


Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a
lot. Maybe Darwinism helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin
training?
  #24  
Old January 9th 21, 12:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default GOAT ASW20

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 5:48:42 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.

I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.

So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ-5C


Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!

Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a
lot. Maybe Darwinism helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin
training?

Real aft CG....yes it spun....I was behind the aft CG with different pilots flying.....I was the light guy....didn't check discs when I flew, wanted more aft CG....didn't realize another dropped discs....found out out about "over the top"spins real fast....still flyablable, but twitchy when stalled (zoomie roll into a thermal).,,owner/towpilot made a comment while I was doing it....
Still a great glider....
  #25  
Old January 9th 21, 12:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default GOAT ASW20

kinsell wrote on 1/8/2021 2:48 PM:
On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:

.
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet
and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave
me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash
talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ-5C


Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a
nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do
better or I could do worse!

...

Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a lot.* Maybe Darwinism
helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin training?


Early on, there were a half-dozen or so incidents. After that, no worse than other gliders, and
I don't recall any explanation. The C model I flew for 1500 hours never tried to spin - very
docile.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #26  
Old January 9th 21, 01:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nicholas Kennedy
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Posts: 78
Default GOAT ASW20

The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
I never had a problem.
The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150..
I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
Nick
T
  #27  
Old January 9th 21, 02:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Posts: 257
Default GOAT ASW20

I bought my 20C from a heavier guy. He told me that there was lead plates above the tail skid and that you have to pull the rudder to get at them. I took the W&B and calculated what weight I needed in the tail for a suitable CG for my weight. Got that done before my import airworthiness inspection. The folks who did the inspection brought out the scales and weighed the glider outside. The glider lost quite a bit of weight courtesy of the light breeze as I found out comparing to the previous W&B.

So I took it to a highway weigh scale early one morning when the air was still.

I gave the lead plates I took out to the next owner.
  #28  
Old January 9th 21, 03:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default GOAT ASW20

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 5:49:17 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I bought my 20C from a heavier guy. He told me that there was lead plates above the tail skid and that you have to pull the rudder to get at them. I took the W&B and calculated what weight I needed in the tail for a suitable CG for my weight. Got that done before my import airworthiness inspection.. The folks who did the inspection brought out the scales and weighed the glider outside. The glider lost quite a bit of weight courtesy of the light breeze as I found out comparing to the previous W&B.

So I took it to a highway weigh scale early one morning when the air was still.

I gave the lead plates I took out to the next owner.

My 20 was involved in a fatal accident early in its life. Light weight pilot trying to thermal at pattern altitude spun in. Someone bought the wreck, bought a new fuselage and tail feathers, repaired the wings and put it back together. Kind of gnarred me out at first but I figured well at least it’s precrashed.
  #29  
Old January 9th 21, 07:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default GOAT ASW20

On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
I never had a problem.
The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
Nick
T


Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear
down and landing flaps selected, but is stable otherwise:

http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
  #30  
Old January 9th 21, 11:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default GOAT ASW20

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 1:26:04 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
I never had a problem.
The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
Nick
T

Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear
down and landing flaps selected, but is stable otherwise:

http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf


The sister ship to my old 20 was involved in one of those fatal spin accidents, those accidents usually occurred while the flaps were in the landing position which may have been the reason for the change in flap extension in the later models. The over the top spin happened without much warning, I did it several times purposely to show Fonz how it reacted. He had a later model that would not replicate the over the top move.
The nickname given to the early 20's was , "The Killer", it did not deserve that reputation, flown correctly with correct cg it was a very docile and beautifully flying bird. My wife flew that 20 for many fun hours and she added about 30 pounds of weight under her seat to obtain a good cg.
Yes, zooming that beast into a thermal was a delightful ride, it seemed like it would never stop climbing, those floppy wings were a sight to behold.
 




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