HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

Are you referring to the accuracy of the prediction or commenting on the
skills of the prospective cardiac surgeon?

Ray Warshaw

"Shawn" sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet wrote in message
...
wrote:
The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
army's opinion on expendablility.

My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
bypass surgery in 10 years!

Shawn

Which would you worry more about?

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
Are you referring to the accuracy of the prediction or commenting on the
skills of the prospective cardiac surgeon?

Ray Warshaw

"Shawn" sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet wrote in message
...

wrote:

The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
army's opinion on expendablility.

My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
bypass surgery in 10 years!

Shawn

Without a doubt, the surgeon. Predictions by wives are always too
gloomy. I'll bet having a physician wife makes it especially hard to
think of snappy comebacks, though.

Ray Warshaw

WOW! I never expected such a great response!.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful and thought provoking comments.
You have all given me lots of food for thought.

Obviously the issue of proper training and preparation is number one.
In my mind this is a given. I posed the question because I have an
oppportunity to purchase a 304CZ that is in my neighborhood and comes
from a highly recommended source. I know that I may have to sit on it
for a while until I get up to speed in the category, but after reading
all the reponses it honestly doesn't seem like it's something that is
"out of my league", again given the proper instruction. I will
DEFINATELY do the dual cross country training that has been
recommended. This is a great idea and something I had planned to do
regardless of what aircraft I selected.

Thanks to all you who took the time to reply. I will follow up on this
post once I make a decision!

Frank

WOW! I never expected such a great response!.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful and thought provoking comments.
You have all given me lots of food for thought.

Obviously the issue of proper training and preparation is number one.
In my mind this is a given. I posed the question because I have an
oppportunity to purchase a 304CZ that is in my neighborhood and comes
from a highly recommended source. I know that I may have to sit on it
for a while until I get up to speed in the category, but after reading
all the reponses it honestly doesn't seem like it's something that is
"out of my league", again given the proper instruction. I will
DEFINATELY do the dual cross country training that has been
recommended. This is a great idea and something I had planned to do
regardless of what aircraft I selected.

Thanks to all you who took the time to reply. I will follow up on this
post once I make a decision!

Frank

Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
to be a requirement of the class.
Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

"Raphael Warshaw" wrote in message
...
I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below
redline
in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that
the
brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
forces". I haven't tried it either.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"303SAM" wrote in message
...
I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out
and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if
you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

Just an aside re Parowan and KS. At the end of one day, Karl came over
as we were tying down our PW-6 and commented that in two thermals when
we were together, he could never climb his Duo up to us -- surprise.

Udo Rumpf wrote:

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe
it was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience.
It is like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the
Indianapolis 500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive
one of those cars. For me, at least, I would need to be the one
flying, with someone in the back seat telling me what I was doing
wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a great experience -- it was, but
just not one that would help me with my flying.


That is an interesting observation.
I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I
would be interested in pushing my average up.
Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for
me. On the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter
then I would like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding
too.
Udo


--
Charles Yeates
ZS Jezow Agent - PW-6/PW-5

CMYeates & Associates
105 Dunbrack St, Apt 110
Halifax, NS, Canada, B3M 3G7
tel/fax 902.443.0094

Web site http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

The 304CZ has a performance pretty close to the ASW 20 with somewhat
more benign handling, safer cockpit and being newly built comes with
modern instruments and a trailer.

As 2NO points out, you won't be quite as competitive at the higher wing
loadings, but I wouldn't let that put you off. It's a very capable
cross-country ship (check out 2NO's just-under-1000km flight last year)
and has a strong following in the USA. It's one of the few non-German
gliders that sells well and keeps its value.

Also gliders available in your area are worth many thousands more than
those across the country - trust me on this!

Mike

303SAM wrote:
Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
to be a requirement of the class.
Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

It was my understanding that it was a requirement that the airbrakes limit
speed to less than Vne even at extreme dive angles. However, I wouldn't
count on that. I seem to remember reading something from Schweitzer
claiming that although their gliders were compliant with that, many of
their competitor's weren't. They also went on to say they thought the
requirement was unreasonable and that they felt their competitor's
performed fine within a reasonable pitch angle (45 degrees?) Point is,
don't try this at home...

dan

Nope, the 304 airbrakes are not terminal velocity limiting. If you've
flown one, you'd think so, but the HpH team says no. The manual says
to expect a 2g decelleration if you pop those bad boys at high speed.
It is correct. Make sure your stuff is stashed or it ends up by the
rudder pedals. Ok, it was a sandwich...
Bill