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#1
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Conflict with aircraft fuel systems and Ethanol are many:
http://www.pmawwacs.org/downloads/go...ce_ethanol.pdf California formulation is only about 5.7 percent Ethanol, so that Cherokee 235 may get away with it for awhile, especially if it flies to other airports and refuels with avgas cutting the percentage even more. The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. The EPA has ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway. |
#2
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Nothing good about Ethanol
The heat of combution of ethanol is about one third of gasoline, also.
An ADM Corporation scam? |
#3
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Nothing good about Ethanol
"180pilot" wrote: The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that, my bs meter starts to twitch. What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What peer-reviewed studies did they publish? -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#4
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Nothing good about Ethanol
On 31-May-2006, "Dan Luke" wrote: The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that, my bs meter starts to twitch. What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What peer-reviewed studies did they publish? Excellent questions. I note that "experts" also dispute the danger of global warning, and other "experts" claim that species evolution is a myth. Yet other "experts" (hired by the tobacco industry, but of course that's just a coincidence) were unable to find any linkage between smoking and lung cancer. At one point many "experts" could prove that powered flight was impossible. Truth is, if you want to use the Internet as a source of information, a finely tuned BS meter is an absolute necessity! -Elliott Drucker |
#5
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Nothing good about Ethanol
On Wed, 31 May 2006 17:51:14 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote: "180pilot" wrote: The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that, my bs meter starts to twitch. What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What peer-reviewed studies did they publish? Well, you can do a search and find a good many studies by legit? universities and corporations. Unfortunately the results for "Net energy Gain" for alcohol production vary from a negative 50% to an outlandish positive of several hundred percent (by a university). IOW if you hunt you will be able to find a study that will support just about any position. Some of these studies are commissioned and come with criteria. You some times really have to dig to find said criteria and often it's not available. Without knowing the criteria under which the study was undertaken leaves the study pretty much meaningless to me. That is unless you place complete blind faith in both who ever did the study and who ever commissioned it. "Department of Energy" should be a good starting point for the feds and states although they have a way of cataloging docs that could be considered camouflage.sigh The validity of Wipi is often questioned, but it's a good starting place to find the referenced studies and then hunt for the studies. The good articles will have references back to specific studies. I've been following/studying alternative energy sources for some time and have had to devote far more time digging than I would have liked, or planed. I've also worked with some researchers with both passive and active solar as well although it was some time back. As near as I can discover the "general consensus" is a small "net energy gain" when producing alcohol. This took into account using the byproducts as well and came up with about a 50% net energy gain. That is not a lot and the real price of alcohol when subsidies for both growing the corn and producing the alcohol is around $3.50 a gallon. "They" are going to be building a large Ethyl Alcohol plant about 30 miles from here in an industrial park at Alma Michigan. Probably close to the site where one failed back in the 70s energy crisis. "Currently" there is no large scale, "wide spread", economical alternative energy source, but there are several areas where large farms of wind generators are proving to be viable. They are running into environmental concerns as far as locations particularly here in Michigan. We have few areas within the state that would work well, but we have several "off shore" that would work very well. However the "shore dwellers" in both Wisconsin and Michigan are basically saying "Not in the middle of our tourist industry!". Nor are these farms cheap with a price tag some times passing several billion. (That was with a "B".) Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#6
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Nothing good about Ethanol
The ethanol is blended with the gasoline right at the tanker truck.
Shake'n'bake with the tanker truck on the road does further mixing, so the gasoline "stocks" are devoid of ethanol contamination right now. THe problem is to get suppliers back to giving us straight gasoline. Jim The EPA has ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway. |
#7
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Most of the stations in the Cincinnati metro area are now selling gasoline
with 5-6% ethanol. My regular supplier didn't sell gas with ethanol until recently. Unfortunately I didn't check it often enough and ended up putting 50 gallons of 5% ethanol in my Skylane. When I discovered this, I went through a great deal of trouble to immediately de-fuel the plane, and refill with 100LL. Needless to say I was quite annoyed by this. I have done the water/jar test on most stations in the area and the ONLY ones not containing ethanol were EXXON and the fuel sold at the Kroger fuel center. Looks like you need to test for ethanol each and every time you buy autogas for your plane. Guy "180pilot" wrote in message ... Conflict with aircraft fuel systems and Ethanol are many: http://www.pmawwacs.org/downloads/go...ce_ethanol.pdf California formulation is only about 5.7 percent Ethanol, so that Cherokee 235 may get away with it for awhile, especially if it flies to other airports and refuels with avgas cutting the percentage even more. The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. The EPA has ruled California no longer has to use it. But will be some time before stocks no longer contain it. That's what I read anyway. |
#8
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Nothing good about Ethanol
The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn wastes more energy than it makes according to experts. Well, use some rational thinking... We grow corn to make alcohol... What does the tractor that plowed and planted the field burn? diesel mostly What do the fertilizer and pesticides put on the field come from? petroleum base What does the combine that harvests the field burn? gas or diesel What does the truck that takes the corn to the local elevator burn? diesel or gas What does the train that moves the corn to market burn? diesel What does the electric motor(s) at the alcohol plant get the current from - and ditto the lights, air conditioners, furnaces, etc? (natural gas mostly) What do the employees at the alcohol plant burn to get there for work each day? gas mostly Where does the heat to distill the mash come from? natural gas What does the truck burn to take the alcohol to the gasoline terminal? diesel ************************************************** *********************************************** Where the oil company cheerfully puts 5% of that 70 cents a gallon alcohol at their cost into the gasoline and charges you three bucks or so for each gallon of alcohol they sell you - a vastly bigger profit margin than they get on the gasoline... Plus, the alcohol decreases your gas mileage so you have to buy fuel more often... Jeez, if you are an oil executive on a pay plus bonus salary, what's not to like ?????? ************************************************** ************************************************** Anyway, those of you who favor alcohol explain to me how burning alcohol reduces oil imports... denny |
#9
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Nothing good about Ethanol
RST Engineering wrote:
The ethanol is blended with the gasoline right at the tanker truck. I heard an interview on a financial show a few weeks back that had an oil company executive telling a completely different story. He explained that plants and storage facilities needed certain parts and seals changed to switch from MTBE laced gas to a gas / alcohol blend. Could this be a regional thing? |
#10
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Nothing good about Ethanol
I know of no Homo sapiens trying to conserve himself into prosperity.
The yankee dollar reigns supreme. You pilots putting auto gas in your planes need to think again, carefully. |
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