Gas Prices -- Help at last?

Jay Honeck wrote:

Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...


Did you READ the article?

Of course he didn't, the facts might get in the way of a preconceived
notion.

What a prick.

Jim



"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
[article with zero aviation content snipped]

You forgot to put "OT:" in your subject line.

Jay Honeck wrote:
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...


Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far with
gubmint regulations?

Yes, Jay.. I read the whole story.. and I knew that fact long before it
was posted in here.. (gasoline refineries). There HAVE however, been all
sorts of OTHER petrochemical units and operations built since then. I
participated in the new construction of a Polypropylene unit a little
over 10 years ago. The truth is.. the OLD gasoline refineries were all
grandfathered. They were permitted to operated DIRTY, and CHEAPLY. Tis
is all about profits.

The oil companies havent gone into bankruptcy in droves over 20 odd
years, if anything they have made money hand over fist. They have not
increased their refining capacity because it would decrease their
overall PROFIT margin. Building new refining capacity to "standard"
would drive their incremental cost of production UP, and eat into the
stockholders dividends. But make no mistake, it would still be PROFIT.

What we are celebrating is the deliberate browbeating of the elected
Republican representatives of the House by the Republican Leadership. I
will bet dollars to doughnuts that they made it clear - vote against us
and we will REPLACE you at the next election with another fellow
Republican who is loyal. The fact that the election was held open until
the bill passed supports that claim.

You want the truth about oil and gas prices? 5 weeks ago when the oil
prices his $70 or so a barrel, the gas prices popped up over $3 a gallon
within days. The OIL that was that expensive was still to be in the boat
being shipped over from Saudi and Venezuela for days to weeks longer. We
paid a premium on refined product that was already in the inventory.
Legalized price gouging, anyone?

You wanted OT.. you got it
Dave

"RST Engineering" wrote


What a prick.

Yep. He is right at the top of my kill file.
--
Jim in NC

".Blueskies." wrote in message
...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
[article with zero aviation content snipped]

You forgot to put "OT:" in your subject line.


Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...


Well, hopefully LITTLE OIL can keep your fuel tanks full.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:NpE1f.408067$_o.120015@attbi_s71...
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...

Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far
with gubmint regulations?

I'm sure the polls and bureaucrats have all the gas they can handle.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Dave S" wrote in message
news


Jay Honeck wrote:
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...


Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far
with gubmint regulations?

Yes, Jay.. I read the whole story.. and I knew that fact long before it
was posted in here.. (gasoline refineries). There HAVE however, been all
sorts of OTHER petrochemical units and operations built since then. I
participated in the new construction of a Polypropylene unit a little over
10 years ago. The truth is.. the OLD gasoline refineries were all
grandfathered. They were permitted to operated DIRTY, and CHEAPLY.

No, they haven't; they are just as susceptible to federal and local
regulations as ever.

And older plants are COSTLY to operate, mainly due to maintenance costs.

Tis is all about profits.

Or an agenda.


The oil companies havent gone into bankruptcy in droves over 20 odd years,
if anything they have made money hand over fist.

In most years they make less profit than the Feds and states take in fuel
taxes.

They have not increased their refining capacity because it would decrease
their overall PROFIT margin. Building new refining capacity to "standard"
would drive their incremental cost of production UP, and eat into the
stockholders dividends. But make no mistake, it would still be PROFIT.

So why should they use their profits and capital to build more capacity when
so many just squeal and whine?


What we are celebrating is the deliberate browbeating of the elected
Republican representatives of the House by the Republican Leadership. I
will bet dollars to doughnuts that they made it clear - vote against us
and we will REPLACE you at the next election with another fellow
Republican who is loyal. The fact that the election was held open until
the bill passed supports that claim.

You want the truth about oil and gas prices? 5 weeks ago when the oil
prices his $70 or so a barrel, the gas prices popped up over $3 a gallon
within days.

You grasp of an issue with mutiple facets is...lacking.

The OIL that was that expensive was still to be in the boat being shipped
over from Saudi and Venezuela for days to weeks longer. We paid a premium
on refined product that was already in the inventory. Legalized price
gouging, anyone?

If the market says the next boat load will cost 10-20-30% more, just how
would YOU price your inventory?

You wanted OT.. you got it

And you're (relatively) clueless.

--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Matt Barrow wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
news

Jay Honeck wrote:

Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...


Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far
with gubmint regulations?

Yes, Jay.. I read the whole story.. and I knew that fact long before it
was posted in here.. (gasoline refineries). There HAVE however, been all
sorts of OTHER petrochemical units and operations built since then. I
participated in the new construction of a Polypropylene unit a little over
10 years ago. The truth is.. the OLD gasoline refineries were all
grandfathered. They were permitted to operated DIRTY, and CHEAPLY.


No, they haven't; they are just as susceptible to federal and local
regulations as ever.

And older plants are COSTLY to operate, mainly due to maintenance costs.

If they are all so costly, then why havent they built new capacity? The
law doesn't outlaw building them, just says you need to build it to meet
modern environmental standards. That makes the older GRANDFATHERED units
"cheap".



Tis is all about profits.


Or an agenda.


The oil companies havent gone into bankruptcy in droves over 20 odd years,
if anything they have made money hand over fist.


In most years they make less profit than the Feds and states take in fuel
taxes.

Considering in Texas I pay 38.5 cents/gallon in taxes to the State and
Federal Governments on my auto gas, and it's been at that tax rate for a
very long time (years), I am not surprised that the Fed's make more
money on the gas than do the oil companies. When gas was $2.00/gal, that
amounts to 20% going to uncle sam. When its at $3.00/gal like it is now,
the gubmint only is taking in maybe 12% of the gross. Thats just from
the gas sales, and doesnt count taxes paid on the property, inventory
and income by the oil companies to the state, local and federal governments.

I somehow don't feel sorry for the oil companies because they aren't
making a clean 12-20% profit on their product after ALL their expenses.
Saying the companies make less in profit than the government does in
taxes isn't telling the whole story.


They have not increased their refining capacity because it would decrease
their overall PROFIT margin. Building new refining capacity to "standard"
would drive their incremental cost of production UP, and eat into the
stockholders dividends. But make no mistake, it would still be PROFIT.


So why should they use their profits and capital to build more capacity when
so many just squeal and whine?

I didn't say they should. The status quo serves them the best. And now
they are about to benefit (if passed) from legislation that will let
them modernize their capacity (WITHOUT environmental protection
requirements) and improve their profit MARGINS. Perhaps the government
should get into the production and refining business and offer some
"competition" or incentive to the oil industry. Any government profits
could be used to support the general fund or any other lawful government
endeavor.



What we are celebrating is the deliberate browbeating of the elected
Republican representatives of the House by the Republican Leadership. I
will bet dollars to doughnuts that they made it clear - vote against us
and we will REPLACE you at the next election with another fellow
Republican who is loyal. The fact that the election was held open until
the bill passed supports that claim.

You want the truth about oil and gas prices? 5 weeks ago when the oil
prices his $70 or so a barrel, the gas prices popped up over $3 a gallon
within days.


You grasp of an issue with mutiple facets is...lacking.

My grasp is not what the subject is. The truth is, when oil futures
prices rise, the gas prices of current inventory go up right away. When
oil futures prices drop, inventory prices don't decrease in a
correspondingly deliberate manner. Regardless of the causation, or my
alleged grasp, look at what really happens.



The OIL that was that expensive was still to be in the boat being shipped
over from Saudi and Venezuela for days to weeks longer. We paid a premium
on refined product that was already in the inventory. Legalized price
gouging, anyone?


If the market says the next boat load will cost 10-20-30% more, just how
would YOU price your inventory?

I guess if I was a profiteer, I would make ad additional surplus profit
on existing inventory, in addition to making my standard profit margin
on the more expensive stuff once it gets refined and delivered. Lets be
clear.. I am not blaming the end distributors for the pricing of their
product. They are at the mercy of their suppliers. The stations
typically make a few pennies profit per gallon and operate on a very
tight margin between cost and profit. They survive on volume, and
convenience store sales. This rant of mine focuses on the suppliers and
refiners who are responsible for their portion of the present situation.
We havent even begun to discuss the fellow consumers who contribute to
the increased gasoline demand and consumption.


You wanted OT.. you got it


And you're (relatively) clueless.

I've been called worse, by better. Just because I discuss only a few
facets of a complex topic in a usenet rant does not mean ignorance of
other facets. Don't confuse concise with simplistic.

Dave

"Newps" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...

Did you READ the article?

Of course he didn't, the facts might get in the way of a preconceived
notion.

Apparently neither of you read the article.

The lack of new refineries means nothing, except (as Dave S pointed out)
that the oil companies don't need new refineries to meet their demand and
they don't feel like investing in their own future, except if they can get
taxpayers to subsidize it, and if they can be released from their
obligations to the environment.

The article, which neither of you apparently read, pointed out that not only
have no new refineries been built, oil companies have CLOSED refineries
already built. If they need refineries so badly, why did they close the
ones they had?

Furthermore, whether passing this bill was the right answer or not, the
article points out that it was done in a very underhanded way. At one
point, they had 424 votes, against the bill. Somehow, they managed to
REDUCE the vote count (to 422) and yet increase the number of "ayes". In
what world is it reasonable to just keep recounting the votes until you get
the answer you want? (Please, no one from Washington State answer that one
). The House voting rules provide for five minutes to count the vote,
and yet the Representative standing in for the oh-so-honorable Tom DeLay
held the vote open for more than 40 minutes, waiting until he and his
friends were able to pork-barrel the votes their way.

All of the above is in the article. Why didn't either of you notice those
facts?

Thankfully, the bill did retain the environmental protections required of
the oil companies. But otherwise, it's a huge win for the oil companies,
and unlikely to be much of a real benefit for consumers. We probably do
need more refineries, if for no other reason than to provide backup capacity
for situations like the hurricanes. But oil companies make plenty of
money...there's absolutely no reason they can't provide their own investment
in their own future.

Any taxpayer that thinks that they will wind up paying less money overall by
funding new refineries is fooling themself.

Pete

The oil companies havent gone into bankruptcy in droves over 20 odd years,
if anything they have made money hand over fist. They have not increased
their refining capacity because it would decrease their overall PROFIT
margin. Building new refining capacity to "standard" would drive their
incremental cost of production UP, and eat into the stockholders
dividends. But make no mistake, it would still be PROFIT.

You say that like it's somehow wrong. That, my friend, is the Capitalist
system.

Stockholders (owners) want a return on their money. Anything that is seen
as a stupid, costly impediment (read: Over-regulation of new oil refineries)
to providing a return on their money isn't going to be done. Any person who
orders such action risks (at least) his job.

What we are celebrating is the deliberate browbeating of the elected
Republican representatives of the House by the Republican Leadership. I
will bet dollars to doughnuts that they made it clear - vote against us
and we will REPLACE you at the next election with another fellow
Republican who is loyal. The fact that the election was held open until
the bill passed supports that claim.

Tsk. Welcome to the world of party discipline. When the party leadership
wants their troops to fall in line, all sorts of behind-the-scenes
arm-twisting goes on. (And ours is NOTHING compared to most systems. You
should see Britain's Parliament in action!)

You want the truth about oil and gas prices? 5 weeks ago when the oil
prices his $70 or so a barrel, the gas prices popped up over $3 a gallon
within days. The OIL that was that expensive was still to be in the boat
being shipped over from Saudi and Venezuela for days to weeks longer. We
paid a premium on refined product that was already in the inventory.
Legalized price gouging, anyone?

I'm not one to defend the oil companies, and I'm as ****ed about gas prices
as anyone. On the other hand, the facts speak for themselves. When no new
oil refineries -- none, zero, zilch, nada -- have been built in a
generation, there is a REASON. And you can't just sit there and blame it on
individual (or collective) greed, cuz that dog don't hunt -- especially when
construction of refineries ceased at precisely the same moment the new
regulations were rolled out.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"