US Tasking? Are way too many TATs/MATs are being called vs. NOTENOUGH ASSIGNED TASKS (3% in 2013)

My take on this is simple:

- FAI classes should almost always be racing ASTs.
- MATs are useful in handicapped races with a range of performance.

John Cochrane makes a point about climatic conditions sometimes making
it difficult or risky to get to a specific point. Perhaps ironically,
the old fashioned sector turnpoints can often solve that problem, at
the cost of flying some unscored extra distance. That's better than not
completing the task.

On 2014-07-29 02:09:48 +0000, Bruce Hoult said:

My take on this is simple:

- FAI classes should almost always be racing ASTs.
- MATs are useful in handicapped races with a range of performance.

John Cochrane makes a point about climatic conditions sometimes making
it difficult or risky to get to a specific point. Perhaps ironically,
the old fashioned sector turnpoints can often solve that problem, at
the cost of flying some unscored extra distance. That's better than not
completing the task.

Here's a turnpoint option I've never seen proposed or discussed:

Assume you're going from turnpoint A via B to C.

You are defined to have sucessfully rounded turnpoint B when:

- current distance to B is less than N km (10 or 20 maybe), AND

- curent distance to A plus current distance to C is greater than B to
A plus B to C


The second part defines an ellipse with A and C at the focal points and
passing through B. Flying from A to any point on the boundary of the
ellipse to C is always the same distance as actually going to B.

Given a GPS this is dead easy to calculate. You could do it even with
an ancient GPS (e.g. CAI Model 10) if you can add two distances
together in your head. Given a new one, or a PDA app it's trivial.

See this post from just a couple of days ago:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....c/eWg9-ugkr8IJ

Then repeat after me: "AT/ASTs are NOT like pylon racing. They are NOT like Yacht Racing. I, [state your name], do solemnly swear to stop making bad/inaccurate analogies, and try to learn what skills are actually measured in a glider contest - and how."

Look, I get it. Some of you like the concept that your butt flies over the same exact spot on the ground as someone else. That makes it feel to you like a set "course" that you're all flying. But that is _not_ the reality of the situation at all! And flying to the same turnpoint in an AT has _nothing_ to do with how it is scored (relative to a TAT/MAT), or the flying skills that it measures.

If you desire a race like an automobile race or a yacht race, you want to advocate for a Grand Prix start. Because what you want is all the gliders in the same are at the same _time_.

The differences between an AT, a TAT, or a MAT pale in comparison to the differences in the air that you and I fly through if we fly over the same spot several minutes apart. This is a unique and challenging part of soaring competition: The course is not "set" and is 4-dimensional. How do you measure pilots against each other when the course itself is changing from moment to moment?

Again: You can make the case that many contests call "easier" tasks these days, and a 20-30 mile cylinder around every turn takes some of the challenge out of a TAT. But don't crucify the task type just because some task-setters don't call them the way you want. Instead, advocate for tasks to be called more-intelligently!

--Noel

On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:17:12 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Here is a crude but accurate Google spreadsheet summarizing the 2013 "Task Mix" in the US (SSA sanctioned).



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing



OVERALL 2013 US Tasks

Total # of Tasks 209

Turn Area Tasks 142 68%

Modified Assigned Tasks 60 29.00%

PURE Assigned Tasks 7 3% (YES, that says 3 PERCENT! 7 total AT's in the US in 2013.)

* Many of the MAT's were the infamous 1 turn MAT!



2013 US Nationals Tasks

(includes 15/18/Open/Standard/Sports/Club)

Total # of Tasks 48

Turn Area Tasks 28 58.33%

Modified Assigned Tasks 15 31.25%

PURE Assigned Tasks 5 10.42%

* All 3 of the 15/Open MATs were ONE TURN MATs

* 2 of the Sports/Club Nationals MAT's were NO TURN MATs.



Is 3% Assigned Tasks OVERALL and 10% Assigned Tasks in US Nationals the right tasking mix?



I for one would like to see FAR more pure Assigned Tasks in 2015 and beyond. What is everybody afraid of again?



Sincerely,



Sean



PS - 3% total assigned tasks in the USA in 2013? Really???????

Are too many TATs being called at the Worlds in Leszno? 3 in 3 days 100%. Really????????

I would like to see more TATs called in US comps. It makes for a much more enjoyable contest and will increase participation.

Richard

I too prefer Assigned Speed Tasks - especially in good conditions, when calling an area task seems such a waste.

TATs are fun, and easier for the CD to call (I've landed out the whole field on ASTs - not fun). But they should be used due to weather or handicap reasons, and be tailored to keep the field close - no sequential 30 mile areas that turn into an OLC task, please.

Long MATs are OK too - but one or no turn MATs should be abolished! They are a total copout by the CD and should be refused by the competitors.

A comment about gaggles - really? On the one hand we complain about lack of participation at contests, then complain that the gaggles will be too big? Perhaps at the Nationals or Worlds, but at the average Regional with 12 participants, you could all start a speed task at the same time and probably not get a gaggle organized!

Kirk
66

If the handicap range is wide there is really no choice on a TAT other than large circles.and the handicap range doesn't have to be terribly wide to produce a wide variation on speeds achieved. On a good long soaring day that drives the requirement for a wide range between minimum and maximum distance

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:25:28 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
If the handicap range is wide there is really no choice on a TAT other than large circles.and the handicap range doesn't have to be terribly wide to produce a wide variation on speeds achieved. On a good long soaring day that drives the requirement for a wide range between minimum and maximum distance

Not true Tony.
Add another turn area and the size of the cylinders drops significantly.
This allows the variability in task length without using cylinders that are 30 miles in radius.
I prefer cylinders of 10 to 15 mile radius maximum in part because this allows the pilot to see enough of the usable area to make decisions.
4 turn areas seem to work well for this.
UH

I am enjoying the posts all on both sides of the issue. Thanks!

I agree there is a need for a TAT. My question is how much of a need?

I agree that "LONG" (emphasis on LONG!) MATs are better than TAT's (better test of skill, more fun). They also allow for AT like tasks with wider handicap ranges.

But only 3% of US tasking in 2013 was pure AT! That's right, ONLY 3 PERCENT!

Isnt that WAY, WAAAAY too low a proportion of the US Tasks? Or is this what "we" want? The AT is now "virtually gone" for all intents and purposes in the US. Furthermore, many (MANY) of the MATs were only 1 turn. 2 of 8 (25%) tasks in the 2013 Sports/Club Class Nationals (Mifflin) we actually ZERO turn MAT's. Is that even fair for a non local pilot? That is 2 ZERO turn MAT's at a National Championship? I was shocked to see this.

It seems to me that we are running wild on eliminating ATs from our tasking.. Quality tasks are dropping dangerously low (assuming that you think pure, simple Assigned Tasks are of higher quality than TATs). We are now almost exclusively calling wide turn area tasks or one turn MAT's in the US. Even at Nationals only 10% of the tasks are Pure AT's.

Overall, we are down to 3% AT's in the entire SSA and USA in 2013. That is a stunning, glaring fact.

Sean

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:39:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:25:28 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:

If the handicap range is wide there is really no choice on a TAT other than large circles.and the handicap range doesn't have to be terribly wide to produce a wide variation on speeds achieved. On a good long soaring day that drives the requirement for a wide range between minimum and maximum distance



Not true Tony.

Add another turn area and the size of the cylinders drops significantly.

This allows the variability in task length without using cylinders that are 30 miles in radius.

I prefer cylinders of 10 to 15 mile radius maximum in part because this allows the pilot to see enough of the usable area to make decisions.

4 turn areas seem to work well for this.

UH

On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:17:12 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Here is a crude but accurate Google spreadsheet summarizing the 2013 "Task Mix" in the US (SSA sanctioned).

Some of this depends on exactly what the goal is (besides "more ATs!" - what is the underlying gliding experience you are going for). To some extent it's also a function of what you are willing to sacrifice to get to that goal. We have come to the current structure as a tradeoff among a series of objectives - some of them conflicting, like "use as much of the soaring day as possible" and "make sure most pilots get home". CDs also have a set of tradeoffs and are trying to manage in the face of a lot of uncertainty.

ATs generally force the field together more. Noel's point is also important here - you're not really together unless you are together in space AND time. You can go for a grand prix start to compress the field even more and replace the 1 mile cylinders with 45 degree sectors (the old FAI and photo-style). The conflicting goals to this format are not landing out a bunch of gliders, not making the thermals too crowded when the field gets bigger than a certain size and not congesting the finish and landing. Those things can be managed by calling conservative/shorter ATs with smaller groups of gliders so that the beginning and end of the day are well within the margin of error for forecasting or pilot/glider capability and not calling them when the weather isn't highly predictable.

I think the honest assessment is that many CDs are trying to call more ATs or Long MATs. But there are a lot of days that you would just call off rather than be forced into an AT when you have no idea whether the weather is going to work. I think many CD's would rather call a 3-hour TAT than a 2.5 hour AT. In my experience most CDs don't call no-turn or one-turn MATs out of stupidity or laziness - they are trying to get a contest day in highly uncertain weather. I remember in the old AT-only days taking a start and watching 50 gliders struggle in the rain for 30 miles ultimately to meet a muddy fate.

Long MATs are essentially the same as ATs without the requirement to land out if the day doesn't go exactly as forecast. (Sean - you should call out "long MATs" in your stats as I think you will see that they are starting to get used more). The last day at 15M/Open Nats this year was a pretty good long MAT, but a little shift in the weather would have changed things substantially as four of the legs required long glides through the blue - mostly over open desert. The later Open Class starters had more challenges with the last couple of turnpoints, so the ability to go home without being landed out can be a useful option.

9B

You can have an impact on these type of decisions by agreeing to be a task adviser at the contest, or by lobbying the task adviser for your class. What the pilots at the contest want, and don't want, is usually taken into account when making tasking decisions. The weather forecast is usually the deciding factor in the decision to use the one point MAT. Most of the CD's that I have worked with listen to the task advisers, and the weather forecaster before concocting the days tasks, and most really try to call a variety of tasks. There is no external mandate to call certain types of tasks. Devising the different tasks is not as easy as would first appear once you participate in the process. Then there are some days when the CD's title needs to be changed to TEO "The Evil One."