Another mid-air (UK)

Chris,

I agree. This becomes a very subjective debate however I have
heard testimonial evidence that people don't fly their aircraft when their
FLARM is U/S.

Does this suggest that they consider that they have become complacent in
look-out following habitual use? or that they consider the risk of mid-air
is significantly higher without an early alert system or perhaps they don't
want to experience any more 'WTF was that' moments in their enjoyment of
the sport.

I still standby my comments, until I am provided with evidence, that the
risk of mid-air is not significantly reduced with FLARM introduction but it
does reduce the number of 'WTF was that' moments.

So I accept that as an aid it may make the flight more enjoyable but in
this thread I won't comment on the additional threats that alert systems
might be adding to comprimising flight safety by incorrect use and
distraction.

Neil


At 13:01 05 August 2014, Chris Rollings wrote:
I can't imagine anyone is going to admit to that or even realise it
applie
to them, at least until they have a mid-air or a very near miss.

At 20:35 04 August 2014, John Galloway wrote:
It has often been hypothesised that FLARM might cause
complacency but no study has found evidence of that. I would
be interested to hear from pilots who who have found that FLARM
use has made them complacent about look out.

John Galloway

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 8:40:05 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

Do you have a cite for your statement that motorists are more careful around cyclist that are not wearing helmets and less near those without?

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/...ing110906.html

Even if you don't share this belief, the analogous question is still relevant:

the question is whether the change in pilot behavior with PFLARM is, looking at the whole picture, more or less safe.

In the context where only some pilots have PFLARM, I'd fly as if no pilots had PFLARM.

So how do you fly now? Do YOU have FLARM?

I'll leave that unanswered because whether I have FLARM or not does not make my question any less valid. I will admit that I'm very glad to fly with a Trig Mode-S transponder.

At 20:35 04 August 2014, John Galloway wrote:
It has often been hypothesised that FLARM might cause
complacency but no study has found evidence of that. I would
be interested to hear from pilots who who have found that FLARM
use has made them complacent about look out.

Everybody agrees that 'complacent' is bad. The word complacent does not capture the gradations of vigilance. I'll admit that I'm somewhat less vigilant about traffic when I'm more than 5 miles from the airport and somewhat more vigilant when I'm within 5 miles of the airport.

On Tuesday, 5 August 2014 16:13:43 UTC+1, Neil Goudie wrote:
Chris,



I agree. This becomes a very subjective debate however I have

heard testimonial evidence that people don't fly their aircraft when their

FLARM is U/S.



Does this suggest that they consider that they have become complacent in

look-out following habitual use? or that they consider the risk of mid-air

is significantly higher without an early alert system or perhaps they don't

want to experience any more 'WTF was that' moments in their enjoyment of

the sport.



I still standby my comments, until I am provided with evidence, that the

risk of mid-air is not significantly reduced with FLARM introduction but it

does reduce the number of 'WTF was that' moments.



So I accept that as an aid it may make the flight more enjoyable but in

this thread I won't comment on the additional threats that alert systems

might be adding to comprimising flight safety by incorrect use and

distraction.



Neil


Neil, I agree that we don't yet know for sure the extent to which FLARM has affected mid-air collision statistics. What we can say for sure IMHO, and with the greatest respect what I think is missing from you comments, is that FLARM has the potential to have significant benefit if its use and limitations are taught and understood properly and, especially, if pilots learn from their experiences of the additional situational awareness information to improve their flying (so as to avoid getting into high risk situations) and also to improve their look out and see and avoid behaviour.

It also has the potential to be pretty pointless if pilots just stick it in their glider and expect it to "work" without them having thought through how to interact with it or to learn from it.

So - what has resulted so far from FLARM use is much less important than what we could make happen with it in the future.

Regrettably structured instruction on FLARM use has not found its way into ab initio training in the UK.

John Galloway

I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have been seeing the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a competition thermal gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.

Who would care to suggest a training syllabus for Flarm?

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:22:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/...ing110906.html

Interesting, but not sure if it's a valid test or if it even applies to US drivers!

Even if you don't share this belief, the analogous question is still relevant:

Disagree.

the question is whether the change in pilot behavior with PFLARM is, looking at the whole picture, more or less safe.

Perhaps a better analogy is seat belts/airbags. Some drivers may drive more dangerously, but overall the injury rate goes down (someone else mentioned this earlier, I believe).


In the context where only some pilots have PFLARM, I'd fly as if no pilots had PFLARM.

Ahh, but PFLARM (unlike regular Euro FLARM) also detects Mode A/C/S and ADS-b. Which is MOST of the power traffic out there, and some of the gliders.


I'll leave that unanswered because whether I have FLARM or not does not make my question any less valid. I will admit that I'm very glad to fly with a Trig Mode-S transponder.

Why? FLARM is by it's nature cooperative. Having it and not saying you do makes no sense. So I assume you don't. But you have a Mode S transponder - so your technological assist to avoiding a mid-air is to make the other pilot responsible - assuming he has TCAS or is talking to center and getting traffic advisories. Good luck with that when some VFR bozo squawking 1200 and not talking to anybody runs you over from behind!

But hey, it's fun to watch airliners do the chicken when they pick up your transponder...

Kirk
66

At 16:17 05 August 2014, waremark wrote:
I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have
been seeing
the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a
competition thermal
gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.


..and another happened in a thermal with two gliders alone.

So we conclude FLARM isn't any use in a gaggle, and isn't any use
not in a gaggle.
So in the context that most mid-airs happen in thermals, when is it
useful? Or is it the Emperor's New Clothes?

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:55:00 AM UTC-7, Stats Watcher wrote:
At 16:17 05 August 2014, waremark wrote:

I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have

been seeing

the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a

competition thermal

gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.





.and another happened in a thermal with two gliders alone.



So we conclude FLARM isn't any use in a gaggle, and isn't any use

not in a gaggle.

So in the context that most mid-airs happen in thermals, when is it

useful? Or is it the Emperor's New Clothes?

I've flown with PowerFLARM for the last 3 seasons and regularly fly in close gaggles. I find it invaluable both in gaggle and cruise situations and wouldn't want to go back to the old ways. Frankly I'm mystified by the resistance to this.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig; I think I understand Flarm denial syndrome. When a glider pilot says " it's not the money its the principal of the thing, then you can be pretty sure it is the money.
I now have both a Flarm and Mode S transponder. I look outside much more now than before than I did before.

Dale Bush

At 18:42 05 August 2014, Craig Funston wrote:
I've flown with PowerFLARM for the last 3 seasons and
regularly fly in
close gaggles. I find it invaluable both in gaggle and cruise
situations
and wouldn't want to go back to the old ways. Frankly I'm
mystified by the
resistance to this.

Cheers,
Craig



A strange reply, you appear to prove the point... Firstly, by
flying in 'close gaggles' you are choosing to raise your personal
risk of collision. (As an aside, I don't understand why as the
gaggle always moves slower than you can achieve by doing
your own thing so why increase your risk for no gain?).
However you must feel you are then lowering this risk by
carrying FLARM, classic piece of risk compensation! which we
hinted at earlier... Unless carrying FLARM can reduced you risk
back to the original level, even by carrying FLARM you are
actually flying a higher risk approach. However.... even the
manufacturer says FLARM is not a close quarters collision
avoidance system, simply a mid range situational awareness
tool, so your risk mitigation strategy appears to be fallacy.

So you prove the point. You are flying a high risk approach,
which your erroneously believe is mitigated. However it is not,
so overall your personal risk, by carrying FLARM, is higher that a
pilot who does not....

Craig: I think I know the cause of "Flarm resistance syndrome". When a glider pilot says "It's not the money it's the principal of the thing" then you can be pretty sure that it's the money.
I now fly with both Flarm and Mode S. I look outside for traffic lots more than I did before. Of course that's just me.

Dale Bush