A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Flight of two, IFR



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 19th 04, 02:10 AM
Doug
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Flight of two, IFR

Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?
  #2  
Old March 19th 04, 02:23 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Doug" wrote in message
om...

Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?


Yes.


  #3  
Old March 19th 04, 04:22 AM
Dave S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Im sure the military does it all the time..

However.. practically.. WHO is going to be responsible for separation on
a formation flight if it goes IMC? The military has procedures that
address this.. i am curious to know if the US civil sector does, and
I've not seen anything pertaining to it..

Anyone care to expand on the DETAILS of actually doing a formation under
IFR in IMC or VMC?

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message
om...

Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?



Yes.



  #4  
Old March 19th 04, 05:46 PM
John R Weiss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Dave S" wrote...
Im sure the military does it all the time..

However.. practically.. WHO is going to be responsible for separation on
a formation flight if it goes IMC? The military has procedures that
address this.. i am curious to know if the US civil sector does, and
I've not seen anything pertaining to it..

Anyone care to expand on the DETAILS of actually doing a formation under
IFR in IMC or VMC?


Indeed, the military has numerous procedures that address IFR flight in
formations. I'm sure the Army, Navy, and Air Force have their own specific
procedures, but in general:

It begins with dedicated VMC formation flying practice early in training,
then expands to IFR/IMC formation procedures. In an IFR formation, the flight
is treated by ATC as a single airplane. Responsibility for separation between
the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.

It is possible and permissible to fly an approach and landing in formation
with tactical (small) aircraft. Generally, IFR formation landings are limited to
2 airplanes, and approach minimums may be higher than those for single aircraft.

When weather is below formation approach & landing minimums, the flight will
separate into 2 single-aircraft flights prior to the approach. It is
essentially the same as one of the airplanes asking for a "popup" IFR clearance.
The flight remains together (either enroute or in holding) until the separate
clearances are obtained. Then the second aircraft starts squawking his own
discrete code and follows his own clearance with regard to altitude and route.

I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be the
same. However, I don't know how the FAA looks on intentional civil IFR/IMC
formation flight in the first place, especially with regard to FAR 91.13...


  #5  
Old March 19th 04, 08:15 PM
Andrew Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John R Weiss wrote:

Responsibility for separation
between the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.


How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can this be done
electronically?

- Andrew

  #6  
Old March 19th 04, 10:02 PM
John R Weiss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Andrew Gideon" wrote...

Responsibility for separation
between the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.


How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can this be done
electronically?


In most cases, visual separation. However, when working in altitude blocks, as
with larger tanker/receiver formations, some of the separation may be done with
air-to-air radar. Even in that case, though, the visibility must be good enough
for visual rendezvous in close.

  #7  
Old March 19th 04, 11:59 PM
Stan Gosnell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
this be done electronically?


Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan
  #8  
Old March 19th 04, 10:38 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s03...

I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept
should be the same. However, I don't know how the FAA looks
on intentional civil IFR/IMC formation flight in the first place,
especially with regard to FAR 91.13...


The only restriction on civil formation flights is carrying passengers for
hire.


91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to
create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by
arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in
formation flight.


  #9  
Old March 19th 04, 11:03 PM
John R Weiss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

I don't know how the FAA looks
on intentional civil IFR/IMC formation flight in the first place,
especially with regard to FAR 91.13...


The only restriction on civil formation flights is carrying passengers for
hire.

91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by
arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in
formation flight.


Thanks.

91.111(b) applies to VFR or IFR, and as you pointed out in your other post,
civil formation flights under VFR is relatively common. However, with the
increased skill level required for safe IFR formation flight, I would expect
that in reality 91.13 would be also be cited if there were any incident or
mishap involving aircraft in IFR formation flight.

  #10  
Old March 20th 04, 06:18 AM
Ditch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be
the
same.


When I did some work for Air Combat USA (marchetti operation) , we had
procedures in place for a formation IMC recovery. I was bummed that I never got
to execute it.
I have done civilian IMC formation before.
Really not that big of a deal if you are profecient at formation flying, as
flying realatively tight is a prerequisite.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) Rich Stowell Aerobatics 28 January 2nd 09 02:26 PM
new theory of flight released Sept 2004 Mark Oliver Aerobatics 1 October 5th 04 10:20 PM
Flight Simulator 2004 pro 4CDs, Eurowings 2004, Sea Plane Adventures, Concorde, HONG KONG 2004, World Airlines, other Addons, Sky Ranch, Jumbo 747, Greece 2000 [include El.Venizelos], Polynesia 2000, Real Airports, Private Wings, FLITESTAR V8.5 - JEP vvcd Home Built 0 September 22nd 04 07:16 PM
FAA letter on flight into known icing C J Campbell Instrument Flight Rules 78 December 22nd 03 07:44 PM
Sim time loggable? [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 12 December 6th 03 07:47 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.