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Club Management Issue



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 25th 04, 02:11 PM
Geoffrey Barnes
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Posts: n/a
Default Club Management Issue

First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with something
like it.

One of our club members was flying our 182 -- which the club leases from the
two gentlemen who own it -- and had what appeared to be an alternator
failure. I'll call this person "Paul" to keep things straight. Anyway,
"Paul" landed at an airport several hundred miles away late on Sunday night.
There is an A&P at the field during normal working hours, but not on Sunday
night. Rather than wait, Paul decided to rent a car and drive home, leaving
the 182 behind.

On Monday, our club A&P cashed in some favors with a client of his, who
we'll call "Mark". Mark agreed to take the mechanic to the remote airport
in Mark's personal aircraft. If it maters, Mark is not a member of the
flying club, but is friendly with several of our members and was willing to
help us out. Once all of this was arranged, Paul was asked if he would like
to go along on the trip, but he said he was unable to do so. So instead,
one of our club CFIs and another club member ("Luke") -- who were scheduled
to do some instrument training that evening in a different aircraft --
agreed to go along and fly the 182 back after the mechanic got things
squared away.

Despite it being a long evening for everyone, it all worked out pretty well.
The aircraft is back, the repairs were fairly cheap, Luke got his instrument
lesson on the way home, and nobody even missed a scheduled flight in the
182. But a debate is raging concerning the costs for getting everything
done. Unfortuneately, the club does not seem to have any specific rules
about this kind of situation. This lack of guidance from the club rule book
rather suprises me, and I hope to fix that issue in the very near future.
But for the moment, we need to make up policy as we go along.

There are four different costs involved here. Our A&P charged us $100 for
the travel time back and forth. The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted
to $70. Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175. And the 182's
flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees, about $225 of which would
normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?


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  #2  
Old March 25th 04, 02:20 PM
Roy Smith
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article t,
"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote:

First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with something
like it.


Sounds like you got lucky -- you discovered a serious problem in the way
your club operates and got out of the mess with a relatively small
amount of money involved.

My club has a hard and fast rule which says what individual members are
allowed to do in the way of maintenance: they can add gas and oil, and
air to the tires. Anything else requires authorization from the
maintenance committee. If anything else needs doing, the member is
required to contact the maintenance committee before spending any money.

The last thing you want is individual members going out and doing their
own repairs. There's two issues here; one is to make sure that repairs
are done correctly and by mechanics we trust, the other is to keep a
handle on who is authorized to spend the club's money.
  #3  
Old March 25th 04, 02:43 PM
J
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:11:23 +0000, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?


We had a situation like that and the club just eat the mechanic's costs.
The owner receiver no revenue, because the reason was the flight was an
un-airworthy aircraft.

jerry
  #4  
Old March 25th 04, 02:46 PM
Paul Tomblin
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Default

In a previous article, "Geoffrey Barnes" said:
Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?


Our club has a policy that if you leave a plane somewhere you're
responsible for bringing it back or paying the costs for someone else to
bring it back. When I got weathered in in Ottawa with no instrument
rating, I had to pay the tach time for another club plane to come out with
two instrument rated pilots, one of whom flew the plane I had come out in,
and one to fly back the ferry plane. A very expensive weekend, I can tell
you.

Another time, however, a club member had a mechanical problem in Colorado
on a Sunday. He had three options:
1 - Abandon the plane and fly home commercial
2 - Call out a mechanic at Sunday emergency call out rates
3 - Wait until Monday and have it fixed at normal shop rates.
If he'd chosen the first, he agrees that he would have been responsible
for covering the costs of bringing it back. If he'd chosen option 2, he
feels the club would have covered the cost, and he's probably right about
that. So he chose option 3, and billed the club for the cost of his hotel
room for Sunday night. Now this caused a lot of dissention in the club,
because some of us thought it was his responsibility to cover expenses
caused by delays, since delays are a natural part of flying small aircraft
over long distance, and other people took his side, that the hotel was a
lot less than the amount we would have had to pay to get it fixed on
Sunday, so the club came out ahead. Eventually the club paid his hotel
bill.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
.... industry giant Microsoft Corporation... a company that has become
successful without resorting to software testing...
-- Unknown, rec.humor.funny
  #5  
Old March 25th 04, 03:09 PM
Mike Rapoport
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow! Good thing this issue came up when the dollars were relatively few!
All kinds of issues here. The following is just my opinion:

The owners are responsible for maitenance, they should pay for the cost of
"failed maitenance". That includes all the related costs. Perhaps they
will learn a lesson about preventative maitenance.

The owners should get their portion of the rental fees for the return
flight.

"Mark" should get a 135 certificate before he gets in trouble.

Mike
MU-2


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
k.net...
First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with

something
like it.

One of our club members was flying our 182 -- which the club leases from

the
two gentlemen who own it -- and had what appeared to be an alternator
failure. I'll call this person "Paul" to keep things straight. Anyway,
"Paul" landed at an airport several hundred miles away late on Sunday

night.
There is an A&P at the field during normal working hours, but not on

Sunday
night. Rather than wait, Paul decided to rent a car and drive home,

leaving
the 182 behind.

On Monday, our club A&P cashed in some favors with a client of his, who
we'll call "Mark". Mark agreed to take the mechanic to the remote airport
in Mark's personal aircraft. If it maters, Mark is not a member of the
flying club, but is friendly with several of our members and was willing

to
help us out. Once all of this was arranged, Paul was asked if he would

like
to go along on the trip, but he said he was unable to do so. So instead,
one of our club CFIs and another club member ("Luke") -- who were

scheduled
to do some instrument training that evening in a different aircraft --
agreed to go along and fly the 182 back after the mechanic got things
squared away.

Despite it being a long evening for everyone, it all worked out pretty

well.
The aircraft is back, the repairs were fairly cheap, Luke got his

instrument
lesson on the way home, and nobody even missed a scheduled flight in the
182. But a debate is raging concerning the costs for getting everything
done. Unfortuneately, the club does not seem to have any specific rules
about this kind of situation. This lack of guidance from the club rule

book
rather suprises me, and I hope to fix that issue in the very near future.
But for the moment, we need to make up policy as we go along.

There are four different costs involved here. Our A&P charged us $100 for
the travel time back and forth. The parts and labor to fix the 182

amounted
to $70. Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would

like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175. And the 182's
flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees, about $225 of which would
normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004




  #6  
Old March 25th 04, 03:40 PM
Ray Andraka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm surprised no one has chimed in on "Mark" asking for reimbursement of fuel.
Unless he was flying under part 135, the best he could do is ask for no more
than the passenger's pro-rata share of the fuel, oil, aircraft rental fee (none
since it was his plane) and direct airport expenses for portion of the flight
the passengers flew. Even at that, I think he fails the common purpose clause,
since he wasn't have been flying to that airport anyway. The FAA takes a very
dim view of this type of operation, and would likely not allow ANY reimbursement
to "Mark" in this case. Getting caught by the FAA in what they consider a for
hire operation would cost Mark far more than the $175 fuel bill. Of course, if
this was a part 135 flight, this wouldn't apply but then I think in that case
the billing would have been discussed up front too.

Regarding the maintenance bill and the costs related to the airplane being
stranded, those should be paid by the aircraft owner since maintenance is his
responsibility. He doesn't want to create a climate that encourages renters to
attempt to return in an unairworthy (or marginally airworthy) aircraft to save
added expenses. The remaining expense could go either way, although if the club
or renter pay for the return trip on the airplane, the owner should pay for the
renter's travel expenses for his return. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:

First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with something
like it.

One of our club members was flying our 182 -- which the club leases from the
two gentlemen who own it -- and had what appeared to be an alternator
failure. I'll call this person "Paul" to keep things straight. Anyway,
"Paul" landed at an airport several hundred miles away late on Sunday night.
There is an A&P at the field during normal working hours, but not on Sunday
night. Rather than wait, Paul decided to rent a car and drive home, leaving
the 182 behind.

On Monday, our club A&P cashed in some favors with a client of his, who
we'll call "Mark". Mark agreed to take the mechanic to the remote airport
in Mark's personal aircraft. If it maters, Mark is not a member of the
flying club, but is friendly with several of our members and was willing to
help us out. Once all of this was arranged, Paul was asked if he would like
to go along on the trip, but he said he was unable to do so. So instead,
one of our club CFIs and another club member ("Luke") -- who were scheduled
to do some instrument training that evening in a different aircraft --
agreed to go along and fly the 182 back after the mechanic got things
squared away.

Despite it being a long evening for everyone, it all worked out pretty well.
The aircraft is back, the repairs were fairly cheap, Luke got his instrument
lesson on the way home, and nobody even missed a scheduled flight in the
182. But a debate is raging concerning the costs for getting everything
done. Unfortuneately, the club does not seem to have any specific rules
about this kind of situation. This lack of guidance from the club rule book
rather suprises me, and I hope to fix that issue in the very near future.
But for the moment, we need to make up policy as we go along.

There are four different costs involved here. Our A&P charged us $100 for
the travel time back and forth. The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted
to $70. Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175. And the 182's
flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees, about $225 of which would
normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759


  #7  
Old March 25th 04, 03:44 PM
Peter R.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Geoffrey Barnes ) wrote:

Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175.


Hmmm... reads to me like "Mark" is asking for more than his fair share of
the direct flight costs, which would be in violation of FAR part 91
regulations.

Here's how I see it:

Our A&P charged us $100 for the travel time back and forth.


Owners should pay this fee and thank their lucky stars that an A&P was not
called out of bed on a Sunday night to fix it. Hell, had our FBO's A&Ps
replaced an alternator during normal business hours, it would have easily
been $250 for parts and labor.

The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted to $70.


Owners.

Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175.


Divide $175 by three (three on board), then have the club pay Mark one
third for fuel.

And the 182's flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees,
about $225 of which would normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.


Wouldn't the original pilot who got stranded at that airport have accrued
this rental fee regardless if the alternator failed? He had to return,
right? I assume the $270 rental fee is calculated based on flying time, not
ground time while awaiting repairs?

However, since the club does not have rules about being stranded, the club
should come up with the rental fees, then write a rule about being
stranded.




--
Peter












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  #8  
Old March 25th 04, 03:51 PM
Russell Kent
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Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Tomblin wrote:

Another time, however, a club member had a mechanical problem in Colorado
on a Sunday. He had three options:
1 - Abandon the plane and fly home commercial
2 - Call out a mechanic at Sunday emergency call out rates
3 - Wait until Monday and have it fixed at normal shop rates.
If he'd chosen the first, he agrees that he would have been responsible
for covering the costs of bringing it back. If he'd chosen option 2, he
feels the club would have covered the cost, and he's probably right about
that. So he chose option 3, and billed the club for the cost of his hotel
room for Sunday night. Now this caused a lot of dissention in the club,
because some of us thought it was his responsibility to cover expenses
caused by delays, since delays are a natural part of flying small aircraft
over long distance, and other people took his side, that the hotel was a
lot less than the amount we would have had to pay to get it fixed on
Sunday, so the club came out ahead. Eventually the club paid his hotel
bill.


Then the club did the right thing. The club was on the hook for the costs of
option #2 as soon as the mechanical problem occurred. Anything that the club
member did that reduced that obligation was gravy to the club. IMHO the club
should've picked up his meals, too, to the extent that the total outlay
(Monday's repair costs + hotel + meals) didn't exceed what option #2 would have
cost.

Russell Kent

  #9  
Old March 25th 04, 03:53 PM
John T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
.net...

"Mark" should get a 135 certificate before he gets in trouble.


Why? If the $175 does not include his pro-rata share, he's legal isn't he?


  #10  
Old March 25th 04, 03:58 PM
Ray Andraka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

At best, only for the trip to the airport. The passengers did not return in the same
airplane. You'd need to divide the $175 by two for the round trip, and then divide
that by 3. Mark pays 4/6ths . However, as I stated, I think the common cause clause
trumps the pro-rata share anyway. Since Mark had no other reason to go to the airport
other than to drop the passengers, he can't ask for any compensation at all. Even
then you need to be careful about non-cash benefits garnered by piloting the flight.

"Peter R." wrote:

Divide $175 by three (three on board), then have the club pay Mark one
third for fuel.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759


 




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