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Flight of two, IFR



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 19th 04, 11:59 PM
Stan Gosnell
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Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
this be done electronically?


Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan
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  #12  
Old March 20th 04, 05:56 AM
Chip Jones
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"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?


I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy
Center (a typical situation since ZID doesn't use paper strips and makes
flight data errors frequently), I queried the pilot on inital contact.

"N123, I think we've fumbled your flight data between Centers. I'm showing
you as a flight of 8 RV8's. Verify you are a single ship?"

"Negative Atlanta, we're a flight of 8."

"Err, OK... how far back is the tail end Charlie?"

"Center, the entire flight is within 100 yards..."

I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Chip, ZTL



  #13  
Old March 20th 04, 06:18 AM
Ditch
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I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be
the
same.


When I did some work for Air Combat USA (marchetti operation) , we had
procedures in place for a formation IMC recovery. I was bummed that I never got
to execute it.
I have done civilian IMC formation before.
Really not that big of a deal if you are profecient at formation flying, as
flying realatively tight is a prerequisite.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
  #14  
Old March 20th 04, 07:26 AM
Jim Baker
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"Stan Gosnell" [email protected] wrote in message
...
Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
this be done electronically?


Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan


Not always Stan. I flew lots of IMC 2 and 3 ship formations in B-52s and
B-1Bs. Altitude separation and electronic station keeping was used to
maintain position. I've also flown a lot of T-38 formation, some of it IMC,
and we just tucked it in close and kept it visual in those instances.

Regards,

Jim


  #15  
Old March 20th 04, 01:48 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message
k.net...

I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office

or do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?


There's no differentiation between civil and military with regard to
formation flights. They can land as a formation or individually, the choice
is theirs.


  #16  
Old March 20th 04, 09:25 PM
Jim Harper
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message nk.net...
"Doug" wrote in message
om...
charming anecdote snipped


I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Chip, ZTL



Chip, no doubt it was another day at the office. LZU is home for a
great EAA chapter and one of the most active...if not THE most
active...RV formation teams in the country.

They have a very formal school and procedure to bring newbies
along...err, newbies would be like me!

Jim Harper
RV 8A N888FP
Flying off the hours!
  #17  
Old March 20th 04, 10:56 PM
Newps
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Chip Jones wrote:


I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads?


Yep, cleared to land.


Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?


Some land as a flight, some break up.

  #18  
Old March 21st 04, 12:46 AM
Ben Jackson
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In article t,
Chip Jones wrote:
I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy


Knowing how much RV guys like formation flying, I'd be more inclined
to worry if I saw a flight strip that claimed to be a SINGLE RV going
anywhere.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/
  #19  
Old March 25th 04, 03:11 AM
Tom Inglima
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The military does it all the time.

Tom
"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?



  #20  
Old December 19th 19, 02:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default Flight of two, IFR

I fly F-16s with the Air Force. There are essentially three methods of formation flying through IFR. The first is by maintaining fingertip formation (roughly 3 foot wingtip separation). Flight lead flies off his instruments while wingmen fly visually off him since you can usually see far enough to maintain visual inside of a cloud. This is normally done as a 2-ship. There are also specific procedures for deconflicting if you lose the visual. The second is instrument trail where you take off with some briefed time delay and every flight member calls their altitude over the intraflight frequency every 5000 feet during the climb and calls every turn. This is only done on departures and flight members are not allowed to be at the same altitude until in VMC and visual with each other. The final one is most common in fighters which is called a radar trail. This is where every flight member locks the one in front of them with their radar and deconflicts based on that.
 




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