Looking for first glider

I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

You could get a lot of good flying experience in a PW5 for less than you
are willing to spend!!!

Jeff Runciman wrote:
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Jeff Runciman wrote in message ...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Jeff,
You can't go wrong with an LS4 or Discus. Both have great handling.
I don't have much time in a Discus, but I know that the LS4 does not
have any nasty qualities that could haunt you. It thermals like a
home sick angel, is strong as hell, and easy to land. My advice is to
avoid a flapped glider for your first ship. Not that they are
difficult, but most have a landing configuration that could be
troublesome if you are not dead-on with your speed control. I
recommend sticking with typical spoilers rather than flaps or trailing
edge dive brakes for glide path control. And don't get hung up on
whether the glider is made of fiberglass or some other more modern
material (like carbon or kevlar). Many of the glass ships can last
almost forever if they are well cared for. The LS4 is certified for
up to 12,000 hours with proper inspection and maintenance. $35K
should be about right for a decent glass glider and trailer. I think
most Discus gliders might go for more.
Good luck. There are a lot of good gliders out there, and starting
here on RAS is a good place to get lots of opinions on an appropriate
first ship. Just remember that what's good for me may not be good for
you for a number of reasons. One of which is that I'm not a tall
pilot so I fit in just about anything. You may not. And lastly it is
worth mentioning that you should look for a decent panel in your
glider. If you buy a minimal panel, or an obsolete one, you will
spend a LOT of money to modernize it. Have fun! Shopping for the
glider is entertaining of itself.

Good advice except I wouldn't agree that "most (flapped machines) have a
landing configuration that could be troublesome if you are not dead-on with
your speed control". In fact flapped gliders are generally easier to manage
on the approach because they become substantially less slippery once the
landing flaps are deployed, so speed control is easier. Also, small speed
changes equate to large pitch changes with landing flaps down.

The issue for a low-hours pilot is really whether the workload of pulling
the flap lever into the landing position once per flight is too great, and
whether the consequent change in the glider's performance and handling will
give a problem in the latter stages before landing. That depends on the
pilot's skill level, particularly his ability to judge an approach
accurately every single time. What you do with the flaps away from the
airfield really doesn't matter initially, as long as you don't exceed the
limiting speeds. You can learn the more subtle art of optimising the
glider's performance using the flaps once you've got used to the basic
handling.

At the correct approach speeds some standard class gliders such as the LS4
and Discus seem uncomfortably nose-up on the approach to us flapped flyers
and this can result in occasional over-fast approaches by pilots not
accustomed to them. This is not a criticism of these types, just a word of
caution; I'd agree with the recommendation that they are quite suitable as a
first glider, as long as the pilot has some glass-fibre experience
beforehand, such as in a K21, Grob Acro or similar.

David Starer


"Ventus B" wrote in message
om...
Jeff Runciman wrote in message
...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Jeff,
You can't go wrong with an LS4 or Discus. Both have great handling.
I don't have much time in a Discus, but I know that the LS4 does not
have any nasty qualities that could haunt you. It thermals like a
home sick angel, is strong as hell, and easy to land. My advice is to
avoid a flapped glider for your first ship. Not that they are
difficult, but most have a landing configuration that could be
troublesome if you are not dead-on with your speed control. I
recommend sticking with typical spoilers rather than flaps or trailing
edge dive brakes for glide path control. And don't get hung up on
whether the glider is made of fiberglass or some other more modern
material (like carbon or kevlar). Many of the glass ships can last
almost forever if they are well cared for. The LS4 is certified for
up to 12,000 hours with proper inspection and maintenance. $35K
should be about right for a decent glass glider and trailer. I think
most Discus gliders might go for more.
Good luck. There are a lot of good gliders out there, and starting
here on RAS is a good place to get lots of opinions on an appropriate
first ship. Just remember that what's good for me may not be good for
you for a number of reasons. One of which is that I'm not a tall
pilot so I fit in just about anything. You may not. And lastly it is
worth mentioning that you should look for a decent panel in your
glider. If you buy a minimal panel, or an obsolete one, you will
spend a LOT of money to modernize it. Have fun! Shopping for the
glider is entertaining of itself.

I just bought an LS4a and am pretty happy with with it (thrilled
actually). I think they're generally a little older than what you're
looking for.

Given your price point, I think you can get the one thing I wanted and
didn't get. That being automatic hookups. Some LS4b's were made with
automatic hookups and some weren't. I think LS4b's are a little hard
to come across.

Good Luck. Owning your own glider is nice.

As a newbie, I'm in no position to give advice. But... a little dual
time in a higher performance trainer might be a good idea.

Doug



Jeff Runciman wrote in message ...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Jeff,

Do not overlook the LS-3. It is a flapped ship but is very docile. Very
good performance (for the price range) and has automatic hook ups. A great
first ship and one that will probable take a while to outgrow.

Joe Hyde


"Jeff Runciman" wrote in message
...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

I have an SZD-59 ACRO for sale that may be something you might want to
consider. Much more performance than a PW-5 and not that many more $. 15
meter span for cross country with water to 11+ lbs/ft2 and 13.2 meter for
acro if that is your thing. Currently advertised in SSA September Magazine
issue. See http://www.ssa.org/members/johnson/ for a copy of the article
that Dick Johnson wrote on my SZD-59 ACRO. I had 100 hours of glider time
when I purchased "59A". Easy to fly and have been able to accomplish a Gold
Badge with 2 diamonds in "59A".

Bob Kibby



"Jeff Runciman" wrote in message
...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
While the posters below made some good points, they overlooked the fact
that you are training in a 2-22. These fly nothing like the gliders
they've suggested to you. Your SEL experience will help you, but
please get some time in a G103, K21, Duo, ect. before you fly any of
the ships listed below.

Thanks
Kevin Christner, CFIG

One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER. Nothing will
make the soaring experience sour quicker than having to struggle with
a goofy, poorly designed trailer.

Make sure you take the time to rig and derig any gliders you are
thinking of buying - preferably with an experience glider pilot friend
along to point out things you may not notice.

Remember, instruments and parachutes can be replaced or upgraded, but
you will have to live with that trailer for a while!

Kirk

Jeff,
Buy a nice LS-4!
It's well in your budget range.
Many have been refinished and upgraded.
Almost all will come with useable instruments, radio, etc.,and usually a
good trailer.
They have earned many accolades for exceptional handling and benign flying
qualities.
They hold their value far better than almost any other glider and there is
always a buyer waiting in rhe wings when you are ready to move on.
Resale is an important consideration.
You can use the money left over in your budget for lots of tows, upgrades
or, you could just send it to your favorite charity.
Cheers!, Pete

"Kirk Stant" wrote in message
om...
One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER. Nothing will
make the soaring experience sour quicker than having to struggle with
a goofy, poorly designed trailer.

Make sure you take the time to rig and derig any gliders you are
thinking of buying - preferably with an experience glider pilot friend
along to point out things you may not notice.

Remember, instruments and parachutes can be replaced or upgraded, but
you will have to live with that trailer for a while!

Kirk