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#1
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Jabiru and Rotax engines
I am doing some research into ultralight engines (planning to build one).
The Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300 are the models i am looking into. Does anyone know how much it costs to maintain them? I just need very generic examples to get an idea. How much does it cost to overhaul them (one or the other)? Any of you ever needed repairs done on them? Did you do them yourselves? How much did it cost (wether or not did you do them yourselves)? And how about oil changes, and replacements of parts? Again, just general examples would be great for me to start getting an idea of what I am getting into Thanks a lot!! -- Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com |
#2
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Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger....
Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift. Michael Coates X-Air Australia Marco Rispoli wrote: I am doing some research into ultralight engines (planning to build one). The Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300 are the models i am looking into. Does anyone know how much it costs to maintain them? I just need very generic examples to get an idea. How much does it cost to overhaul them (one or the other)? Any of you ever needed repairs done on them? Did you do them yourselves? How much did it cost (wether or not did you do them yourselves)? And how about oil changes, and replacements of parts? Again, just general examples would be great for me to start getting an idea of what I am getting into Thanks a lot!! |
#3
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"NewsGroups" wrote in message
... Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger.... Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift. Michael Coates X-Air Australia Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the Rotax? I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you running? Thank you for your feedback! -- Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com |
#4
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"Marco Rispoli" wrote in message t... "NewsGroups" wrote in message ... Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger.... Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift. Michael Coates X-Air Australia Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the Rotax? I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you running? Thank you for your feedback! -- Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com I know nothing of the Jabiru except from hearing and reading about it, which causes me to avoid it as a choice for anything I might build. As for the Rotax 912, 912S 100HP, and 914, I have heard both good and bad, mostly good. However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction. He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports) were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the 912 as a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming. |
#5
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Marco,
Join the Jabiru newsgroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ if you already haven't. You can also go to http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/downloads.htm and download the engine manual. We have a 3300 on a Fisher Horizon 2 with 43hrs. on it. Only major thing we have done to it is to put on a bigger oil cooler. You have to do a little work to balance out the cylinder temps. Other than that routine maintenance. Dealer support is good in the US. Haven't heard of any catastrophic failures. They did have some problems with the early 2200 engines, but things are good now. I have no experience with the 912. I'm sure we can find people to bash both engines, it would be nice to hear from someone who has truly experienced problems with either one. Dave Wilson N203ED |
#6
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Marco Rispoli wrote ...
Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks.... Mmmm, better take that "feedback" with a grain of history: The author had a Jabiru dealership in Australia at one time & frequently extolled the virtues of the engine. When the rate of exchange between the US & AD dollars got to an extreme, it became possible to arbitrage the difference & pay Mr. Coates the Australian retail price plus freight to the US for less than buying it at a US dealer. This naturally caused a good deal of consternation among US dealers & the end result was that Mr. Coates had his engine supply shut off. Since then he's had nothing but negative things to say about the engine. To my mind, this dichotomy in his opinions speaks more of Mr. Coates than it does of Jabiru. If you'd like some feedback from folks who are flying the engine, check with Sonex builders on one of the Yahoo groups. I suggest: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sonexbuilders or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Light_...rcraft_Engines These two groups are builder operated & you'll get honest open opinions. Avoid any of the other Sonex groups are moderated by Sonex LLC. They have a history of stomping pretty hard on anyone saying anything that doesn't match their "policies". Daniel |
#7
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However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an
airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction. He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports) were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the 912 as a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming. I am a CFI A,G and an A&P with an I.A. I was a Field Service Rep. for Diamond for over a year. I received formal training on the Rotax engines during this time. I fly and maintain the Rotax 912 and 914, but have only flown the 912S. Diamond uses the Lycoming in the DA40. Rotax does not make an engine powerful enough for this aircraft. Problems with the Rotax engines included 1. Both Rotax and Diamond did a poor job of educating mechanics on how to maintain the engine and pilots on how to operate the engine. Pilots are generally not very knowledgeable on engine operation. As proof I offer all the "old wife's tales" seen even on this newsgroup. 2. The Diamond engine installation is less than ideal. "10 pounds in a 5 pound bag". 3. A&P mechanics were not overly interested in learning something new, liquid and air cooled, electronic ignition and in metric too. 4. The Rotax maintenance manuals are not well organised. However they are available on line for free, as are SBs. Some of the operators I served loved the engine and had no problems maintaining them. These folks knew the engine frontwards and backwards. They took the time to educate themselves. I must admit it took me a bit of time to learn the engine but the information is available if you care to look and ask questions. When the engine is set up correctly, it starts like a car, hums like a Singer sewing machine and produces rated power. Lockwood is a good source of information, as I am sure CPS is. Lockwood seems to be able to get me parts literally over night. I guess it is not hard to stock parts when there are only 3 models. Diamond still supports the Rotax powered airframes, and the two Field Service Reps, (Paul and Glen) do a great job of answering questions. One of the Rotax powered aircraft I maintain is a Katana DA20 A1 with a 912. The owners lease it to a very active flying club for student training. The owners are very happy with it and the students fly it a lot. Another is a Katana Extreme motorglider with the 914 turbo in it. The biggest problem with this is the waste gate shaft rusting in place because of the lack of usage. Otherwise the engine runs great. I change oil every 50 hrs and leave spark plugs in no more than 150 hrs. The engine wants to be operated a lot, fly it regularly. Maintain it by the book. At operators where problems are occurring I'll bet none of the A&Ps have formal training on the Rotax engine and have not really read the book. My biggest complaint is that with such a modern engine with electronic ignition, close tolerances, high revs,a gear box, why in the world does it have carburetors. Why not fuel injection? It is not a Lycoming or a Contintal and can not be treated as one. Many of the problems I saw were a direct result of lack of maintaince or operating well past the recommended service times. It is a bit odd isn't it that this engine has found acceptance in the rest of the world? It seems that just here in the US there have been so many problems. I have flown Rotax powered aircraft in good WX and bad, night and day. I'll continue to fly ones I maintain knowing they will do good by me. Robert Mudd |
#8
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"Daniel" wrote in message
om... If you'd like some feedback from folks who are flying the engine, check with Sonex builders on one of the Yahoo groups. I suggest: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sonexbuilders or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Light_...rcraft_Engines These two groups are builder operated & you'll get honest open opinions. Avoid any of the other Sonex groups are moderated by Sonex LLC. They have a history of stomping pretty hard on anyone saying anything that doesn't match their "policies". Daniel Thank you! -- Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com |
#9
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Hello all,
You have got it all wrong...... i can still sell Jabiru's but i choose not to. We had installed about 10 or 12 on a plane we imported, a basic UL called the X-Air. We have had nothing but trouble with those installations and its nothing to do with the plane. Oil leaks, electrical problems, flywheels falling off.... the list would bore you its that long. I am one to support anything that's good and if the problems with the Jabiru could be resolved with the factories assistance then we would still be supporting them but when the factory tells you to 'work it out yourself' and their favorite is.. 'we have never seen that before - this is the first one' then they are a company to steer clear of, there is NO FACTORY support. We have had engines using 1 liter per hour from the first hour, engines leaking 1 lph from the first start... arghhh.... It makes me mad because there is the potential there for a fantastic Australian product and more importantly some good export dollars and some more jobs in a rural area where everything else is shutting down. Don't just take my word, its my opinion but do yourself a favor and go to google and type in 'jabiru engine problems' ... you will get over 1000 hits and most are like this link to Titan Tornado. http://www.titantornado.com/engine.html http://www.masquito.be/progress3.htm Read this and 10 others and you will decide that there are better engine choices out there... and forget asking people with just a few hours on the engine like the one below with 43 hours... ask Australian flying schools, schools who do 1000 hours per year. Look at the AU aviation mags.. all the adds are FOR SALE Jabiru ??? 400 hours on airframe 140 on engine.... need i say more Regards Michael Coates X-Air Australia David Wilson wrote: Marco, Join the Jabiru newsgroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ if you already haven't. You can also go to http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/downloads.htm and download the engine manual. We have a 3300 on a Fisher Horizon 2 with 43hrs. on it. Only major thing we have done to it is to put on a bigger oil cooler. You have to do a little work to balance out the cylinder temps. Other than that routine maintenance. Dealer support is good in the US. Haven't heard of any catastrophic failures. They did have some problems with the early 2200 engines, but things are good now. I have no experience with the 912. I'm sure we can find people to bash both engines, it would be nice to hear from someone who has truly experienced problems with either one. Dave Wilson N203ED |
#10
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In article ,
" jls" wrote: "Marco Rispoli" wrote in message t... "NewsGroups" wrote in message ... Buy the Jabiru if you want to carry tools rather than a passenger.... Lets start with adjusting the valves every 25 hours and maybe retension the heads every 10, then add all the failures, both electrical and mechanical add the total lack of support and silly answers like... never heard of that before, your the first one etc etc Get the Drift. Michael Coates X-Air Australia Hum ... ok. So I guess the Jab stinks. Do you have any experience with the Rotax? I am assuming that you don't have the Jabiru ... can I ask what are you running? Thank you for your feedback! -- Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com I know nothing of the Jabiru except from hearing and reading about it, which causes me to avoid it as a choice for anything I might build. As for the Rotax 912, 912S 100HP, and 914, I have heard both good and bad, mostly good. However, recently I spoke with a friend who was a CFII on an airport with a 912 in a Diamond Katana used on that airport for instruction. He condemned the engine, said it (and a few others at other nearby airports) were often in the shop for repairs, and says he's sure that's the big reason -- service dependability problems -- why Diamond dropped the 912 as a powerplant and went to Continental and Lycoming. A close friend is factory support for a major aircraft manufacturer who uses the 912 and 914 in some of their aircraft. He tells me that the switch to the Continental had very little to do with engine reliability and more to do with the Continental being a better fit in performance, operation, and maintenance for the north american market and for training in general. Mechanics were more comfortable working on the Continentals and instructors were more used to the mode of operation. Historically, newly designed airframes coupled with newly designed engines (relatively speaking of course) has been the formula for lots of teething problems. This particular airplane engine combination has had relatively few problems. The choice of a Lycoming for their 4 seat bird has nothing to do with the reliability of Rotax engines. The 4 seater needed a180 hp engine and Rotax did not have one at that time. (Certified) Aircraft engine design being the excruciatingly conservative exercise that it is. I would think it unlikely that Rotax or Jabiru have designed in any real serious flaws. However, quality assurance problems during fabrication and assembly have let flawed engines get out the door for all manufacturers. Those type of flaws tend to show up sooner in these small, high revving engines. -- Take out the airplane for reply |
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