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Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 15th 17, 01:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

All this anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. We might guess that something might or might not happened if there is nose hook but in the end it is just that. A guess.
  #32  
Old October 15th 17, 03:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

Falsies on a glider!Â* Who'da thunk it?

On 10/14/2017 11:37 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 12:47:47 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 11:23:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Maybe some might think differently about the wisdom of fitting nose books to all gliders (where possible) if they had lost a colleague to a kiting belly hook equipped glider he was towing.

When a tow is going normally it makes little difference where the hook is but when the glider has begun to kite it makes a big difference.

That is an excellent point. It can also make a difference in marginal take-off conditions, crosswind, narrow strips, long grass, stuff you might find on an aero retrieve, etc. And low time/new pilots especially may not have the judgement to not try that, especially if they see other gliders towing from there.

Can you aero tow a glider easily with a CG hook? Sure you can. Are there benefit to having a nose hook? Sure there are. Should you install one... uh depends (Clubs and low-time pilots I would hope err on the side of having nose tow hooks).

In a club ship, if there is a nose-hook option, installation should be done. We have an LS-4b that came with only a CG hoot. It took a while, but eventually a member took a launch excursion and nearly collided with some private gliders on the launch point tie-downs. A factory kit was ordered and installed.

I mentioned previously that many years ago at least three Colorado Std Cirrus owners had 'bras' that slipped over the nose and were retained by the CG hook and were towed from the front of the 'bra'. Upon release, rope and 'bra' followed the tow plane home. At the time, they probably didn't have a retrofit option.

Frank Whiteley


--
Dan, 5J
  #33  
Old October 15th 17, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 5:49:48 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
All this anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. We might guess that something might or might not happened if there is nose hook but in the end it is just that. A guess.


I wonder if you caught the irony in your declaration. I would offer that multiple parties with similar experiences is a statiscally valid trend.
  #34  
Old October 15th 17, 07:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

I think it's reasonable to question whether or not the cost of the kit is worthwhile compared with the gain. But it's pretty difficult to argue that there isn't some gain.

In recent years there have been very few production gliders delivered without a nose hook and powerful airbrakes. Essentially, the 2 Schempp-Hirth technotes that cover these items give a Standard Cirrus owner the opportunity to modernise their glider if they choose.

Cheers,
Nick.

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 11:19:48 PM UTC+10:30, krasw wrote:
All this anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. We might guess that something might or might not happened if there is nose hook but in the end it is just that. A guess.

  #35  
Old October 16th 17, 09:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

On Sunday, 15 October 2017 20:19:57 UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 5:49:48 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
All this anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. We might guess that something might or might not happened if there is nose hook but in the end it is just that. A guess.


I wonder if you caught the irony in your declaration. I would offer that multiple parties with similar experiences is a statiscally valid trend.


Statistical data would be like "we have a group of Std.Cirrus gliders with nosehook and similar group with C/G hook, and we can say that this group exhibits XX accidents during tow per 100000 hrs, and other group YY accidents per 100000 hrs". Or something to that effect.
  #36  
Old October 17th 17, 02:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT), krasw
wrote:


Statistical data would be like "we have a group of Std.Cirrus gliders with nosehook and similar group with C/G hook, and we can say that this group exhibits XX accidents during tow per 100000 hrs, and other group YY accidents per 100000 hrs". Or something to that effect.


100% agree.

For 25 years my club has had two DG-300: One with nose hook and one
without. We had exactly one incidence where a DG-300 got the tow plane
out of control by pulling up its tail.

It was the one with the nose hook.

  #37  
Old October 17th 17, 09:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

So, Andreas, do we conclude the the physics and maths of tow hook placements are wrong or that there is always someone who sometime can manage to do something especially stupid?
  #38  
Old October 17th 17, 02:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

Please forgive my unfamiliarity with kiting, but can someone explain what goes so wrong that a pilot does not release as soon as he/she loses slight of tow plane. In 1500 plus hours of flying out of the mountains in the western US, including many tows out of Minden through the rotor to the laminar.. For the life of me I cannot see how a glider can kite so bad that they kill a tow pilot. Only once while low in the White Mountains, have I even run out of elevator control versus force of nature. Out of Minden twice I have had to release on tow in rotor, just because I lost slight of tow plane. What goes so wrong in a kitting accident that the glider cannot control the kite nor releases as soon as the tow goes out of sight under the nose? I am not being flippant or insensitive, I truly am not sure how a pilot gets into such a kitting.

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 6:29:08 PM UTC-7, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT), krasw
wrote:


Statistical data would be like "we have a group of Std.Cirrus gliders with nosehook and similar group with C/G hook, and we can say that this group exhibits XX accidents during tow per 100000 hrs, and other group YY accidents per 100000 hrs". Or something to that effect.


100% agree.

For 25 years my club has had two DG-300: One with nose hook and one
without. We had exactly one incidence where a DG-300 got the tow plane
out of control by pulling up its tail.

It was the one with the nose hook.


  #39  
Old October 17th 17, 03:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 8:29:08 PM UTC-5, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT), krasw
wrote:


Statistical data would be like "we have a group of Std.Cirrus gliders with nosehook and similar group with C/G hook, and we can say that this group exhibits XX accidents during tow per 100000 hrs, and other group YY accidents per 100000 hrs". Or something to that effect.


100% agree.

For 25 years my club has had two DG-300: One with nose hook and one
without. We had exactly one incidence where a DG-300 got the tow plane
out of control by pulling up its tail.

It was the one with the nose hook.


Andreas, pre Newtonian physics (Galileo) suggest that the nose hook is providing more stability, no non-stochastic statistics necessary to prove that! Why is it so hard to accept that you're better off with the tow line attached to a point far forward of the cg? Anecdotal stories are BS.
  #40  
Old October 17th 17, 03:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default Is there a nose hook modification for a standard cirrus

Le mardi 17 octobre 2017 16:13:50 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:
On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 8:29:08 PM UTC-5, Andreas Maurer wrote:

100000 hrs". Or something to that effect.

100% agree.

For 25 years my club has had two DG-300: One with nose hook and one
without. We had exactly one incidence where a DG-300 got the tow plane
out of control by pulling up its tail.

It was the one with the nose hook.


Andreas, pre Newtonian physics (Galileo) suggest that the nose hook is providing more stability, no non-stochastic statistics necessary to prove that! Why is it so hard to accept that you're better off with the tow line attached to a point far forward of the cg? Anecdotal stories are BS.


Of course a nose hook provides a little bit more of stability.
Now, if you *need* this little delta to stay safe, you shouldn't be flying solo in the first place.
 




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