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#11
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I don't think you can answer the question by focusing only on the issue of
flaps. A better question is "How many new and different things will my first glider have that I am not experienced with?" If the answer is only "just flaps" - no big deal. If it's flaps plus things like no spoilers/90 degree flaps, or a drogue chute, or side mounted stick, or V tail, or large span - then you have to be very careful that you are not over extending yourself. My first glider did not have flaps (Phoebus B) - my son's did (ASW-20). Both were good choices I think. Good luck Roy |
#12
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Flaps are not a problem as long as you remember they
are there and remember to set them appropriately. In many ways they can make the glider easier to fly in terms of better approach control, and better aileron control if negative flap is selected for the early part of the take off ground run and after touchdown on landing. However the ability to evolve a third arm for operating the flap lever would be useful on occasions! Other things to consider a 1) Extra complication and maintenance costs. 2) Positive flap limiting speeds. You can damage things if you fly too fast in positive settings. 3) Spin recovery becomes a bit more complicated. You are most likely to spin when turning slowly in a thermal with positive flap selected, in which case the first action must be to select neutral or negative flap before carrying out the normal spin recovery. Otherwise you risk exceeding the flap limiting speed in the recovery dive, which is a possible cause of several glider break-ups and fatalities. Basically flapped gliders should not be flown by forgetful or disorganised pilots! Derek Copeland --------------------------- At 02:06 24 August 2005, Skysailor wrote: I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I would like some opinions concerning this. |
#13
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Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of 90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible. I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90 degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...). LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency" brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to steer and brake at the same time. Kirk 66 |
#14
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You might want to look further at the brake system. On my LS-3a, which
has a similar arrangement to yours, I can stand it on the nose with the brakes. And I have never had a particularly difficult time steering while braking. Larry " wrote in message oups.com: Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6 approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of 90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible. I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90 degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...). LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency" brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to steer and brake at the same time. Kirk 66 |
#15
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Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will.
Casey Lenox KC Phoenix |
#16
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There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33.
Bill Daniels "Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:hcaPe.124896$E95.65391@fed1read01... Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will. Casey Lenox KC Phoenix |
#17
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"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ... There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33. Bill Daniels Ahhhh....maybe my winter project! Got any more contact info? Thanks, Casey |
#18
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In article .com,
"skysailor" wrote: I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I would like some opinions concerning this. I don't think flaps are a big deal if you can cope with a manual transmission car ;-) Looking back, i started flying my first flapped glider (an original model Janus) when I had 75 hours total time and was signed off on it 3.5 months later when I had 110 hours -- the club had a ten flights/ten hours requirement for it due to not only the flaps but also the sensitive all-flying tailplane and aerotowing on a belly hook (and also perhaps quite a bit of "the club's shiny new toy" syndrome). So I did 10 flights in it (hmm ... and only 7 hours) in those three months, but also 11.5 hours in a Club Libelle, 8 hours in a Std Libelle, 7 hours in a K6 and 3 hours between Blanik and K13. I think you should do a few flights in a flapped two-seater (such as the Janus) before flying a flapped single-seater and see how you go. -- Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+- Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O---------- |
#19
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Flaps = more opportunities for a mistake as you have something else to care
of ... It's built for: - better XC task average speed It helps: - For take-off, with negative setting - For xc landing in a short field It makes things more difficult: - When landing - If flaps set to "Landing" but you're too low - When landing in turbulence - significantly less controls efficiency - When landing at too-low speed - regaining speed takes long long - When spiraling - less controls efficiency In short - If you're not yet an reaonably experienced XC pilot, better to avoid flaps ... Go for unflapped ship then start using your wing ballasts first then if you still want to improve your perf then only ... Jean |
#20
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Then you must have double-jointed ankles!
Seriously, what it needs is a bigger wheel, a hydraulic disc brake, and activation by a squeeze lever on the stick. Which is sorta what DG is offering on new LS8s and 10, isn't it? Except they may use the spoiler lever for the brakes - due to trim lever on stick. I'm happy for you that your LS3 has a working brake - it's probably been worked on, which I agree I should do to mine soon. Forturnately, I now fly off a grass field and stopping is not a great problem. But it's nice that the glider manufacturers have over the years come to realize that gliders are often flown from paved strips - and now provide decent brakes. Kirk 66 |
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