? For Ed Rasimus

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!!

Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical
data or memoirs.

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the
entire air war over NVN.

Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of
May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack
on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one
book.

A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which
chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with
names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent.

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.
Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".
John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"
Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Pechs1" wrote in message If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam
air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm

No libraries in your village?

BYU- No libraries in your village? BRBR

Sure, the same library that is hosting the Rocky Mtn Peace and Justice center's
peace demnostration this WE...questions??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Thanks again Ed. I have read your book, of course, really excellent as well as
"11 Days". I am reading "From the Flight Deck" now, an anthology of carrier
warfare writings.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 04 Feb 2004 16:08:40 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

BYU- No libraries in your village? BRBR

Sure, the same library that is hosting the Rocky Mtn Peace and Justice center's
peace demnostration this WE...questions??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope.

I served 10 years on the Board of Trustees of the Pikes Peak Library
District. A fighter pilot on a library board is a bit of an unnatural
act, but I had a lot of fun and we got a lot done. We did have to keep
a balance in the events, so there were both left-wing and right-wing
events.

Did a panel on terrorism about a year ago at Colorado College (very
left) with a Peace & Justice wimp and a couple of other apologists.
Was the only warrior-type, but pulled no punches. There are some
things worth fighting for and NO, we didn't cause 9/11, the cowardly
terrorists did. They just don't get it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!!

Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical
data or memoirs.

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the
entire air war over NVN.

Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of
May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack
on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one
book.

A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which
chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with
names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent.

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.
Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".
John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"
Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

While I am not interested in starting a mud-slinging session or an
excahange of flames, I am interested in why you did not like "Phantom
Over Vietnam". I wasn't there (too young)and only have the accounts
of others to learn from.

Thanks in advance & blue skies . . .

John Pelchat

On 4 Feb 2004 09:21:01 -0800, (John Pelchat)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.
Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".
John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"
Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

While I am not interested in starting a mud-slinging session or an
excahange of flames, I am interested in why you did not like "Phantom
Over Vietnam". I wasn't there (too young)and only have the accounts
of others to learn from.

Thanks in advance & blue skies . . .

Good question. I know John Trotti and have exchanged emails with him.
Good guy and good combat Marine aviator. I simply didn't like the book
because it compiled mission events into single missions, seemingly
making them more intense and it described some defensive reactions in
areas that such was extremely unlikely. I simply felt it didn't meet
my criteria for contribution to the genre.

I didn't like Broughton's second book because it was almost totally
dedicated to an apologia for the Turkestan incident. Didn't like
Bell's book because it recounts a series of his screwups and doesn't
even acknowledge that they were screwups. Eschmann's work doesn't do
much but recount B-52 missions while totally ignoring the daytime
tactical ops of Linebacker II and the supporting night tactical
flights. Michel does a much better job of shedding light on what went
on.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!!

Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical
data or memoirs.

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war
in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War
1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's
list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases.

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span
of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was
trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides'
sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last
correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with
access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones.

Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the
entire air war over NVN.

Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone
who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P.
Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of
his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the
USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects
doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more
cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check
all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity
than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF
operations.

Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of
May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack
on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one
book.

Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's
co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better
job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than
anyone had a right to expect).

A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which
chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with
names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent.

Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a
Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less
personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station,"
there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam."

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.

Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less
elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get
tiresome.

Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".

Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my
bias towards the historical and technological side of things.

John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"

Big disagreement between us here.

Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"

I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven
Days of Christmas."

Guy

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!!

Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical
data or memoirs.

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war
in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War
1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's
list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases.

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span
of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was
trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides'
sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last
correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with
access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones.

Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the
entire air war over NVN.

Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone
who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P.
Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of
his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the
USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects
doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more
cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check
all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity
than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF
operations.

Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of
May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack
on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one
book.

Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's
co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better
job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than
anyone had a right to expect).

A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which
chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with
names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent.

Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a
Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less
personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station,"
there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam."

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.

Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less
elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get
tiresome.

Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".

Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my
bias towards the historical and technological side of things.

John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"

Big disagreement between us here.

Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"

I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven
Days of Christmas."

Guy