How accurate was B-26 bombing?

Peter Kemp wrote:

snip

First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
good BDA. A quick question though....

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?

If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can carry the same
number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the HSAB; 24 on
the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have a
somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs. 36-40%;
the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more GP,
i.e. more blast-biased.

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Peter Kemp wrote:

snip

First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
good BDA. A quick question though....

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?

If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can
carry the same
number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the
HSAB; 24 on
the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have
a
somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs.
36-40%;
the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is
more GP,
i.e. more blast-biased.

I don't think they have been in production since the 1950's. Apparently they
were actually starting to demil the M117's at Crane Depot back in the
mid-nineties (I presume that was later put on hold). The 80 series bombs
went into production during the fifties, and IIRC a few authors (and maybe
some of the posters here who have dropped them) have indicated that we have
just been working on whittling down the stocks remaining from the
pre-Vietnam production. ISTR the biggest dislike of the M117 was its less
aerodynamic shape and poorer accuracy when comapred to the 80-series
weapons.

Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed a rocket
boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.

Brooks


Guy

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Peter Kemp wrote:

snip

First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
good BDA. A quick question though....

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?

snip

I don't think they have been in production since the 1950's. Apparently they
were actually starting to demil the M117's at Crane Depot back in the
mid-nineties (I presume that was later put on hold). The 80 series bombs
went into production during the fifties, and IIRC a few authors (and maybe
some of the posters here who have dropped them) have indicated that we have
just been working on whittling down the stocks remaining from the
pre-Vietnam production. ISTR the biggest dislike of the M117 was its less
aerodynamic shape and poorer accuracy when comapred to the 80-series
weapons.

I've read statements by pilots who've dropped both of them, on both sides of the
accuracy and effect issue. Some are adamant that the M117 was more effective
and more accurate, and the other side is equally adamant that the Mk. 82 wins
the accuracy contest at least. This seems to be more a matter of personal
opinion than objective fact. The one objective fact about the two is that the
M117 was unquestionably draggier.

Guy

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 02:11:10 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:


If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can carry the same
number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the HSAB; 24 on
the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have a
somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs. 36-40%;
the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more GP,
i.e. more blast-biased.


IIRC Bufdrvr mentioned something previously about carrying UK Mk 15/18 1000
pounders also, anyone got the numbers of those carried ?


greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?


Running down old stock, and by the looks of some of them, it clearly shows.
Someone must have thought Arc Light was going to last for 100 years. There are
still over 20,000 M-117 at Andersen alone. We're trying to drop as many as we
can since its cheaper to drop them (aircraft fuel included) than it is to
"de-mil" them.

Do they have a noticably better
CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

The mil dispersion on an M-117 is twice that of a Mk-82 (not sure about
Mk-83?), simply because there less aerodynamic (round like a pot bellied pig)
and manufactured before the Nixon administration.As far as price goes, I'd
imagine they're equal (in current dollars). An M-117 has a much thinner bomb
body, but around 50% more explosive filler...sounds like a "wash" on price, no?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more
GP,
i.e. more blast-biased.

True, however depending on what you're doing (bombing a building versus bombing
people), you may want the better frag weapon (Mk-82). Bigger boom isn't always
better....just more fun.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed a rocket
boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.

Strange since the thin skinned M-117 has nearly zero pentration capability. All
putting a rocket on it would do was ensure the skin breached before the
explosive chain hit its full psi. A big sparkler would be the result.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/2/04 4:21 PM Pacific Standard Time

n M-117 has a much thinner bomb
body, but around 50% more explosive filler...

How does this effect shrapnel effecitveness and dispersion?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

The one objective fact about the two is that the
M117 was unquestionably draggier.


Its a fact that the accuracy of the the M-117 (measured in mil dispersion) is
twice as *bad* as the Mk-82.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

IIRC Bufdrvr mentioned something previously about carrying UK Mk 15/18 1000
pounders also, anyone got the numbers of those carried ?


Hmm, I believe they were 14" lug spaced which means we should have been (only
carried during DESERT STORM) able to carry 27 internal and 24 external (on
MERs) unless there is some kind of spacing issue with an oversized conical
fin/retarder. I'm not familiar with the UK-1000. Does it have any unique
features like a large Drag device or conical fin?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"