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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 8:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote You were conducting aerobatic flight. TRUE Robert, I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight.. See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546 where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise. Thoughts? |
#12
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
... On Aug 23, 8:17 am, Robert Moore wrote: "Flaps_50!" wrote You were conducting aerobatic flight. TRUE Robert, I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight.. See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546 where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise. Thoughts? First of all, I really doubt that anyone other than the NetKops on UseNet care whether you were conducting acrobatic flight. Personally, the only reason I can think of for an emergency descent in a non-pressurized light single is a fire; and in that case I might not stop at 90 degrees. Besides, in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle! As to commercial jets, each type may require a type rating and each type rating may include a recommended procedure. There is an article on flying corporate and commercial turbine powered aircraft in each issue of AOPA Pilot, and one of the issues about a year ago did include a simulated emergency descent. In the aircraft type involved, it was easily possible for an attendant or passenger to be standing in the cabin at the time that an emergency might develope; so IIRC the proceedure used in the article was to roll about 30 degrees and push over sufficiently to feel a little light in the seat (about 1/2G) while retarding the thrust levers to flight idle. The article covered the procedure trained by a particular operator of a particular aircraft type. Peter |
#13
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 10:02*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
*Besides, in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle! Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the research before doing this maneuver in the first place. The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better myself in see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in VFR training in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my own plane? As you can see, this from the Flight Aware thread I provided, came up because of the Hudson River mid air and discussions ensued on evasive maneuvers, thus me wanting to expand on my own envelope on avoiding a mid air collision. I know I may be comparing apples and oranges when comparing jets to pistons but the concept of minimal G for the bank lead me to believe what was posted in the thread I brought here as it being a non acrobatic maneuver. I now have expanded my avoidance in two directions rather then one. Right and down rather then just down. |
#14
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 7:57*am, a wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:52*am, a wrote: On Aug 22, 10:41*pm, a wrote: On Aug 22, 9:51*pm, " wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank. Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains one of each. Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.. Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve the technique as this was my first time doing this Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank? Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough throttle to keep the engine warm. I don't have the documentation handy and my memory may be in error, but I think the Mooney's limits when used in the general utility category are 30 degrees pitch 60 degrees bank. *Since it's used mainly for XC, mostly under IFR, there's no reason to ever come close to those limits. I wondered if the Sundowner certification was markedly different.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ah, here it is, and it isn't just Mooneys. * * * * * a. *FAR Section 91.71 defines "acrobatic flight" as "an * * * intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's * * * attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not * * * necessary for normal flight." *In addition, Section 91.15(c) * * * indirectly refers to acrobatic flight in which it specifies that * * * "unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved * * * parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft, carrying any person * * * (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver * * * that exceeds: * * * * * * * (1) *A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or * * * * * * * (2) *A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees * * * relative to the horizon."- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into would be better. Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low? |
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 9:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote You were conducting aerobatic flight. TRUE Breaking the law is one thing IN WHAT RESPECT but are you certified for aerobatics? PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS in the USofA What about your aircraft? When properly equipped, the B23 and C23 are approved for limited aerobatics. (Wikipedia) This could get you killed. Normal takeoffs and landings kill a lot of pilots. Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303. LET ME REMIND YOU.... that the Sundowner is approved for Spins. Google "Beechcraft Sundowner Spins" and you will find a reference to "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness By Rich Stowell". I would suggest that you read the paragraphs on the following web page.http://books.google.com/books?id=i8r...A304&lpg=PA304 &dq=Spins+in+sundowner&source=bl&ots=u0xxM-hDbY&sig=r8g_VtQN_AjTS8Cql- tWtg0geRo&hl=en&ei=KD2RSo_BKoH8tge9p6TPBA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result& resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false Jeeze...damn amateurs....... Bob Moore ATP B-727, B-707, L-188 USN S-2F , P-2V , P-3B Flight Instructor ASE-I PanAm (retired) I'm wondering why the 60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a 'chute for all occupants doesn't apply? |
#16
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 10:40*am, a wrote:
Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into would be better. The reason I went right was to practice mid air collision avoidance. For head on's, your suppose to turn right from what I understand. Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low? I find it more comfortable with my left wing low for the very reason you say above, visibility is better rather then having to look across the cabin and not seeing the ground as much. |
#17
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
I was taught a steep spiral for getting down really fast in a very
small area. I don't have the Sundowner POH but I just checked my Musketeer POH - 2.9, Maneuver Limits: Bank Angles no more than 60 deg. Of course on the following page there's the remark "Minimum flight crew: One (1) pilot" |
#18
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 10:49*am, Blanche wrote:
I was taught a steep spiral for getting down really fast in a very small area. I don't have the Sundowner POH but I just checked my Musketeer POH - 2.9, Maneuver Limits: Bank Angles no more than 60 deg. Of course on the following page there's the remark "Minimum flight crew: One (1) pilot" In my plane it's placarded allowed commercial maneuvers (Chandelles, lazy eights come to mind). I do need to check the POH.to double check the bank limitations, but I don't remember seeing such a limitation. VNE is 152 knots. I do remember seeing the same remark minimum flight crew of one pilot. I guess that is the legalese way of saying that a pre-solo student can't fly the plane solo legally LOL |
#19
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
In article
, a wrote: Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into would be better. Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low? I will if there's a crosswind from the right. That would be flying a Tecnam Sierra, being the only low-wing aircraft I've flown in a long time. |
#20
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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video
On Aug 23, 8:03*am, Gauntlet
wrote: *What height did you enter the manoeuvre? *What height did you commence recovery? *What height did you recover at? I can't answer the book questions, only the streetwise questions. Altimeter hands clearly show that I started the banked descent at 6000. I approached VNE very quickly and recovered at 4500 clearly seen in the video. In the beginning of the video, I also alerted ATC that I would work between 4000 and 6000 and told them that I would be making rapid altitude changes so they could expect that. 325 is my airport elevation so I had plenty of altitude. Gmeter in my plane showed a maximum 2 G value on recovery, and there was no negative G recorded I only banked, no pulling or pushing in the yoke and held the bank angle until the nose started to drop. Video also shows my recovery was not abrupt as I let the plane fly out on it's own. I had a self imposed floor of 4000 and as you can see in the video, VNE came up before the floor, so I let the plane level on it's own without any power adjustment. I did do two emergency descents without bank to get a feel of what was needed for nose down attitude without pushing on the yoke excessively. Beech Sundowner is my plane and commercial maneuvers are permitted. I have a little over 950 hours in my plane I did check out all I could before doing this maneuver.(see response to Robert Moore) and didn't do this "blindly" as the intent of my own lesson was to learn how to descend quickly should an imminent head on be in my future. I do feel I did all I could research wise to ensure safety, and as you can see, the outcome does speak for itself. I posted the video for entertainment, educational value on how I fly, we all know it's not designed for instructional value nor is this the intent of any of my videos. Truth be known, I felt just as safe doing this as doing a power on / power off stall. Nose dropped just the same. Only difference I felt was the speed was higher, G forces were non existent and I had to be on top of my game for energy management.. |
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