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#32
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wrote in message om...
(Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... According to Captain Boston, he and Admiral Kidd were ordered in advance of the inquiry to conclude it was an accident by President Johnson and Secretary of Defense McNamara. That is, the Court of Inquiry was a sham which produced a whitewash. And you believe that the admiral just rolled-over, played dead, and did not protest. You have a pretty low opinion of your Navy's commanders. Capt Boston's own words: "...Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court's findings. ..." "...I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington. ..." "... Finally, the testimony of Lt. Painter concerning the deliberate machine gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and included in the original transcript, is now missing and has been excised. ..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Boston's sworn statement that Lt. Painter testified to the MGing of the liferafts, but his testimony was not included in the NCOI report is especially interesting. Here is an excerpt from an article critical of the Liberty crew, basically calling them liars. The article authors go after Painter, saying he testified to one thing in court, but now tells another story. But Boston's sworn whatever confirms what Painter is saying, that what he testified to was not included in the final NCOI report! http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hchannel2.html ------------------- start of pro Israeli bull ------------------------- • The producers present at face value Mr. Painter's charge that Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned Liberty life rafts that had been placed in the water, which if true could be a violation of the laws of war: PAINTER: I climbed the ladder and opened the hatch and looked out to the sea, and what I saw was the Israeli torpedo boats machine gunning our life rafts in the water as they floated behind our ship. Once again Mr. Painter contradicts both his own sworn testimony before the Court of Inquiry, and that of his Captain. The Court's opening question to Lt. Painter, after name, rank and organization, was: On 8 June 1967, at about 1400 hours, an incident occurred aboard the USS Liberty in which the vessel was attacked. Would you please relate to this Court of Inquiry what you recall concerning that incident? Nowhere in his response did Lt. Painter mention anything about Israeli attacks on life rafts in the water. On the contrary, he testified that most of the life rafts had been damaged and set alight during the prior jet attacks on the ship, and that his crew pushed many of these burning life rafts overboard: At this time [after the torpedo attack], the DC central passed the word to prepare to abandon ship. We then filed out to our life rafts which were no longer with us because they had been strafed and most of them were burned, so we knocked most of them over the side... All during this time in Repair Three, my men were fighting fires and knocking burning life rafts, etc. What possible reason could Lt. Painter have had for omitting in his testimony the charge which he now makes, that Israel attacked the Liberty's life boats after they were put in the water? Why does he now fail to mention that in fact he and his crew pushed the life rafts overboard? Whatever the reason for the divergence between Mr. Painter's present claims and his testimony, Captain McGonagle also never mentioned any attack on life boats during his testimony. On the contrary, he testified that after the torpedo attack some crewmen mistakenly put life boats in the water, and that he ordered them to stop because the ship was in no danger of sinking: ------------ end of pro Israeli crap ------------------------------- |
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ojunk (Mike Weeks) wrote:
Jim Watt _way wrote: (Mike Weeks) wrote: Jim Watt _way wrote: (Mike Weeks) wrote: Oops; it's a comment made in 2002 by the 1967 [then-CIA director] Helms in that BBC trash production of "Dead on the Water" Is it trash because it comes to a different conclusion to you? You should really appreciate this; it's trash because it's a fairy tale. And the evidence for that statement is? You have yet to show any evidence that the book "The Liberty Incident" is a fairy tale; since you admit to not having read it. This is not evidence. This is 'changing the subject.' Whether or not Watt read Cristol's book is hardly evidence that the BBC production is a 'fairy tale.' This is just another example of the kind of non sequitur Weeks often uses to muddy the waters. How typical. I've seen this video, and when they use a cropped BDA photo taken from a Mirage IIICJ(R) which has been widely published since 1967 showing destroyed EAF MiGs on the ground and attempt to pass it off as having been taken from an USAF RF-4C flying for the IAF, piloted by USAF crews ... The cropped photo doesn't show the Mirage's shadow at the bottom ... You get just one example. Come back after you've read Cristol's book ... Again, to imply that Watt's reading Cristol's book or not is 'evidence' that the BBC production is a 'fairy tale' is totally bogus. Your alleged proof concerning a cropped photo is your own personal view, and as such is not evidence, it is just your opinion. This just another example of the non-entity know as Weeks being omniscient. |
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wrote:
(Issac Goldberg) wrote: wrote: IMO the Navy's court of inquiry has a better record of finding the facts than Congress. But in a high profile case, leaders of a Navy Court of Inquiry are subject to pressure of the President if that President wants it to reach a certain conclusion. Ha? From http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dlj...dlj50p1835.htm @The Supreme Court recognized potential problems with the independence @of military judges in Weiss v. United States.139 The Court noted that @military judges may be reassigned at any time because they have no @fixed term of office. "Commissioned Officers are assigned or detailed @to the position of military judge by a Judge Advocate General for a @period of time he deems necessary or appropriate, and then they may be @reassigned to perform other duties."140 Military judges also are @accountable to their respective Judge Advocates General for their @decisions. "By placing judges under the control of Judge Advocates @General, who have no interest in the outcome of a particular [*pg 1858] @court-martial, we believe Congress has achieved an acceptable balance @between independence and accountability."141 What the Supreme Court @failed to recognize is that Judge Advocates General may indeed have a @significant interest in the outcome of cases when a large issue or @principle is at stake. In case you missed it, the president can not command military judges, only the "Judge Advocates General" can do so. All the president can, legally, do is to ask the court to take his testimony. Your entire argument fails because you assume that all of Johnson's actions were 'legal.' One spectacular example of Lyndon Johnson violating the law was his theft of the 1948 Senate election in Texas by means of vote fraud. Try reading the three volumes of Caro's LBJ biography, since they will provide illuminating insight into what an unethical fellow Johnson really was, and how he would willingly break the law to further his political goals. |
#35
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In case you missed it, the president can not command military judges,
only the "Judge Advocates General" can do so. All the president can, legally, do is to ask the court to take his testimony. (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... Your entire argument fails because you assume that all of Johnson's actions were 'legal.' One spectacular example of Lyndon Johnson violating the law was his theft of the 1948 Senate election in Texas by means of vote fraud. Johnson was a pretty smart SOB. He knew that all his communication with Kidd would be recorded. Had Johnson given Kidd a clear proof that Johnson commited illegal acts, Kidd would have the power to roast Johnson's ass either by the Senate or by the JAG. Johnson just could not be that stupid. |
#36
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wrote in message om...
In case you missed it, the president can not command military judges, only the "Judge Advocates General" can do so. All the president can, legally, do is to ask the court to take his testimony. (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... Your entire argument fails because you assume that all of Johnson's actions were 'legal.' One spectacular example of Lyndon Johnson violating the law was his theft of the 1948 Senate election in Texas by means of vote fraud. Johnson was a pretty smart SOB. He knew that all his communication with Kidd would be recorded. Had Johnson given Kidd a clear proof that Johnson commited illegal acts, Kidd would have the power to roast Johnson's ass either by the Senate or by the JAG. Johnson just could not be that stupid. Johnson was certainly not stupid. If he knew his conversations would be recorded, he was powerful enough to have the recordings erased. |
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On 6 Jul 2004 09:00:29 -0700, (Issac
Goldberg) wrote: wrote in message om... In case you missed it, the president can not command military judges, only the "Judge Advocates General" can do so. All the president can, legally, do is to ask the court to take his testimony. (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... Your entire argument fails because you assume that all of Johnson's actions were 'legal.' One spectacular example of Lyndon Johnson violating the law was his theft of the 1948 Senate election in Texas by means of vote fraud. Johnson was a pretty smart SOB. He knew that all his communication with Kidd would be recorded. Had Johnson given Kidd a clear proof that Johnson commited illegal acts, Kidd would have the power to roast Johnson's ass either by the Senate or by the JAG. Johnson just could not be that stupid. Johnson was certainly not stupid. If he knew his conversations would be recorded, he was powerful enough to have the recordings erased. Magnetic personality ? -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
#38
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Johnson was a pretty smart SOB. He knew that all his communication
with Kidd would be recorded. Had Johnson given Kidd a clear proof that Johnson commited illegal acts, Kidd would have the power to roast Johnson's ass either by the Senate or by the JAG. Johnson just could not be that stupid. (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... Johnson was certainly not stupid. If he knew his conversations would be recorded, he was powerful enough to have the recordings erased. How? The command to destory the naval records would have to pass several hands between the president and the corporal that would press the "erase" botton. Every hand along the way would be a risk factor that could take an interest in the records just because the president wanted them erased. |
#39
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(Steve Richter) wrote:
Boston's sworn statement that Lt. Painter testified to the MGing of the liferafts, but his testimony was not included in the NCOI report is especially interesting. Here is an excerpt from an article critical of the Liberty crew, basically calling them liars. The article authors go after Painter, saying he testified to one thing in court, but now tells another story. But Boston's sworn whatever confirms what Painter is saying, that what he testified to was not included in the final NCOI report! http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hchannel2.html The link also shows how selective Camera can be. When it quotes from the 1967 Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearings, Camera leaves out the comments by the Senators. Those comments clearly indicate that the Senators do not accept McNamara's explanations. Furthermore, the Senators had not been provided with the report from Kidd's inquiry, despite their previous request. Following are, first, the fragment of the hearings quoted in Camera, and second, the same hearings including the parts that Camera omitted: First, Camera's selective account: start Secretary of Defense McNamara mentioned this incident in testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1967: Secretary McNamara: ...In the case of the attack on the Liberty, it was the conclusion of the investigatory body headed by an Admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence that the attack was not intentional. I read the record of the investigation, and support that conclusion, .... It was not a conscious decision on the part of either the Government of Israel-- Senator Hickenlooper: Perhaps not. Secretary McNamara: (Continuing) To attack a U.S. Vessel. [undocumented deletion by Camera] Secretary McNamara: No. There is no evidence that the individuals attacking the Liberty knew they were attacking a U.S. ship, and there is some evidence, circumstantial, that they did not know it. [undocumented deletion by Camera] Secretary McNamara: Senator Hickenlooper, I don't want to carry the torch for the Israeli. It was an inexcusable error in judgment. ..... Secretary McNamara: And an inexcusable error of professional tactics. I would simply point out to you that, at the same time, I was denying that we had struck a Russian ship in Haiphong Harbor [sic] and I proved to be in error. These errors do occur. We had no more intention of attacking a Russian ship than Israel apparently did of attacking an American ship. (Cristol, p 95-96) end Second, the transcript including the parts deleted by Camera. Included are punctuation marks as printed in the original document published by the GPO [Government Printing Office] and, if a deletion was made by the government, it is indicated by '[deleted].' The definition of the legal term "res ipsa loquitur" used by Senator Hickenlooper is at the end of the post: start Hearings on the Foreign Assistance Act of 1967 (S. 1872) Senate Foreign Relations Committee of the United States Senate, June 12, July 14 and 26, 1967. … Senator Hickenlooper: I had intended to ask you about the Liberty incident. Of course I didn't go through the minute investigation, but there is a phrase in law called res ipsa loquitur. From what I have read I can't tolerate for 1 minute that this was an accident. Senator Case: It wasn't, nobody claims it was, do they? Senator Hickenlooper: I think it was a deliberate assault on this ship. I think they had ample opportunity to identify it as an American ship. I may be utterly wrong, but I do recall that some time ago we had some difficulties in the Bay of Tonkin where at night without full identification or really full proof it was assumed that certain torpedo boats made rather menacing approaches to one of our destroyers and we rushed over here with the Tonkin Bay resolution right away. A war was unleashed. What have we done about the Liberty? Have we become so placid, so far as Israel is concerned or so far as that area is concerned, that we will take the killing of 37 American boys and the wounding of a lot more and the attack of an American ship in the open sea in good weather? We have seemed to say: "Oh, well, boys will be boys." What are you going to do about it! It is most offensive to me. Secretary McNamara: Senator Hickenlooper, there are several points I would like to make. Senator Hickenlooper: If Nasser had come out there and even fired a torpedo at it, I am quite sure what we would have done. Secretary McNamara: Senator Hickenlooper, there are several points I would like to make in reply to your question because – Senator Hickenlooper: I am making some assumptions upon which I don't have full information. I am sorry. Secretary McNamara: I think you reaction is a very human one, and to some degree it has been ours at times; but the first point to establish, I believe, in determining a response is intent. In the case in the Gulf of Tonkin there was reason to believe that the attack was intentional. In the case of the attack on the Liberty, it was the conclusion of the investigatory body headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence that the attack was not intentional. I read the record of the investigation, and support that conclusion, and I think this, therefore, begins to – Senator Hickenlooper: When you say it was not intentional, you don't mean those guns fired themselves? Secretary McNamara: It was not a conscious decision on the part of either the Government of Israel – Senator Hickenlooper: Perhaps not. Secretary McNamara: (Continuing.) To attack a U.S. vessel. Senator Hickenlooper: I think that could be conceded. Secretary McNamara: In that respect, it differs materially from the attack in the Tonkin Gulf. If it was not the result of a conscious decision to a attack a U.S. vessel, then I think we would be expected to respond in a different fashion than we responded in Tonkin Gulf. Our Government has made the strongest possible protest to the Israeli Government on this matter. I would be happy to make available to the committee the report of the investigation if it chooses to examine it. Senator Hickenlooper: Do we have any more reliable information that the Government of North Vietnam intended for those torpedo boats to attack an American ship? Secretary McNamara: I think if we examine the intelligence data at the time – Senator Hickenlooper: (Continuing.) Than we do on this Liberty incident! Secretary McNamara: Yes, there is no question but what we have more evidence here of lack of intent to consciously attack a U.S. vessel than we had there. May I finish by taking just one second to say I would like to go back and examine the record of the Tonkin Gulf incident which occurred 3 years ago, and on which my memory is a little hazy, to determine the evidence of conscious intent of attack. I think it is very clear. [Deleted.] There is no evidence of that in the case of the Liberty. Senator Hickenlooper: There is no evidence, then, no evidence that we have at all, that there was any communications between Tel Aviv and the attacking vessels or the airplanes that apparently flew over this ship several times at rather low altitude. Secretary McNamara: No, There is no evidence that the individuals attacking the Liberty knew they were attacking a U.S. ship, and there is some evidence, circumstantial, that they did not know it. Senator Hickenlooper: I probably shouldn't pursue this. But it just doesn't sound very good to me. I can't accept these explanations that so glibly come out of Tel Aviv and perhaps some rather confusedly come out of our own investigation, I don't know. Secretary McNamara: I would suggest that you might like to look at the investigation report, and, if you do, we shall be happy to make the classified document available. The Chairman: We asked for it about 2 weeks ago and have not received it yet from Secretary Rusk. Secretary McNamara: I will be happy to see that you get it tomorrow if you wish, or today. The Chairman: By the time we get it we will be on some other subject. Secretary McNamara: From the time you ask it of me, you will have it in 4 hours. Jack, go over and ask for it to be sent right over. Senator Hickenlooper: It may not be what is in the report. It could be conceivably what is not in the report. Secretary McNamara: Well, there is nothing left out of the investigation report that I have any knowledge of. Senator Hickenlooper: It is inconceivable to me that the ship could not have been identified. According to everything I saw the American flag was flying on this ship. It had a particular configuration. Even a landlubber could look at it and see that it has no characteristic configuration comparable to the so-called Egyptian ship they now try to say they mistook it for. If these people were as well trained as they allege they are, and did what they did, I don't know. It just doesn't add up to me. It is not at all satisfactory. Secretary McNamara: Senator Hickenlooper, I don't want to carry the torch for the Israeli. It was an inexcusable error in judgment. Senator Hickenlooper: That is what it looks like we are doing in this country. Secretary McNamara: And an inexcusable error of professional tactics. I would simply point out to you that, at the same time, I was denying that we had struck a Russian ship in Haiphong Harbor; and I proved to be in error. These errors do occur. We had no more intention of attacking a Russian ship than Israel apparently did of attacking an American ship. Senator Hickenlooper: I think that incident is totally different. We didn't have torpedo boats in Haiphong Habor [sic] running around looking at that ship and then firing at it after they fully looked it over and saw it. I am not going to pursue this any further. Senator Aiken: I think, not only the committee, but the public wants better information than they have had so far. Senator Hickenlooper: The public is thoroughly dissatisfied with the situation. I don't know. It is the seemingly cavalier attitude expressed by Israel in some ways apparently accepted by us on a very tragic situation. I think there is utterly no excuse for it. Secretary McNamara: I think there is no excuse, Senator Hickenlooper. I completely agree with you, but it is thoroughly clear, based on the investigation report, that it was not a conscious attack on a U.S. vessel. Senator Mundt: You mean by the pilots? Secretary McNamara: By the pilots. They did not identify the vessel as a U.S. vessel prior to the time of attack. You may consider this inconceivable. Senator Mundt: On the part of the attackers, yes. It seemed to be broad daylight. Secretary McNamara: They definitely did not. As far as we can tell. All of the evidence points to the contrary. Senator Mundt: You take their word for it! Secretary McNamara: My conclusion is based on the investigation report which did not discuss the identification with the Israeli pilots or Naval personnel involved, but did examine all of the circumstances of the attack and did discuss it with the commander and even the men on the Liberty. Senator Hickenlooper: Just to complete the record on this, I didn't mean to pursue this. I am just quoting now from a Navy release from the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense. This is a release on June 28 about this incident. I will read one paragraph. "The Court – " Referring, I take it, to the Court of Inquiry – "The Court heard witnesses testify, however, to significant surveillance of the Liberty on three separate occasions from the air at various times prior to the attack – five hours and 13 minutes before the attack, three hours and 7 minutes before the attack and two hours and 37 minutes before the attack." If they didn't identify that ship, then they are not as smart as I think they are. Secretary McNamara: I am not sure whether they did. I don't believe they did. But in any event, they weren't the attackers. The attackers, so far as we could tell, had not recognized the ship and, in any event, had not recognized it as a U.S. ship. Beyond that, as best we can tell, there were inadequate communications between the aircraft and/or ships reconnoitering and the attacking vessels. I think it is an inexcusably weak military performance. That, I fully agree with. But I simply want to emphasize that the investigative report does not show any evidence of a conscious intent to attack a U.S. vessel. end The following definition comes from a legal dictionary: res ipsa loquitur (rayz ip-sah loh-quit-her) n. Latin for "the thing speaks for itself," a doctrine of law that one is presumed to be negligent if he/she/it had exclusive control of whatever caused the injury even though there is no specific evidence of an act of negligence, and without negligence the accident would not have happened. Examples: a) a load of bricks on the roof of a building being constructed by Highrise Construction Co. falls and injures Paul Pedestrian below, and Highrise is liable for Pedestrian's injury even though no one saw the load fall. b) While under anesthetic, Isabel Patient's nerve in her arm is damaged although it was not part of the surgical procedure, and she is unaware of which of a dozen medical people in the room caused the damage. Under res ipsa loquitur all those connected with the operation are liable for negligence. Lawyers often shorten the doctrine to "res ips," and find it a handy shorthand for a complex doctrine. |
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wrote:
How? The command to destory the naval records would have to pass several hands between the president and the corporal that would press the "erase" botton. Every hand along the way would be a risk factor that could take an interest in the records just because the president wanted them erased. Well, here is one way to do it: July 9, 2004 Pentagon Says Bush Records of Service Were Destroyed By RALPH BLUMENTHAL, The New York Times HOUSTON, July 8 - Military records that could help establish President Bush's whereabouts during his disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard more than 30 years ago have been inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon. It said the payroll records of "numerous service members," including former First Lt. Bush, had been ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. No back-up paper copies could be found, it added in notices dated June 25. The destroyed records cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Mr. Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question. The disclosure appeared to catch some experts, both pro-Bush and con, by surprise. Even the retired lieutenant colonel who studied Mr. Bush's records for the White House, Albert C. Lloyd of Austin, said it came as news to him. The loss was announced by the Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters to The New York Times and other news organizations that for nearly half a year have sought Mr. Bush's complete service file under the open-records law. There was no mention of the loss, for example, when White House officials released hundreds of pages of the President's military records last February in an effort to stem Democratic accusations that he was "AWOL" for a time during his commitment to fly at home in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War. Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said that the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response. The disclosure that the payroll records had been destroyed came in a letter signed by C. Y. Talbott, chief of the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Office, who forwarded a CD-Rom of hundreds of records that Mr. Bush has previously released, along with images of punch-card records. Sixty pages of Mr. Bush's medical file and some other records were excluded on privacy grounds, Mr. Talbott wrote. He said in the letter that he could not provide complete payroll records, explaining, "The Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) has advised of the inadvertent destruction of microfilm containing certain National Guard payroll records." He went on: "In 1996 and 1997, DFAS engaged with limited success in a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. During this process the microfilm payroll records of numerous service members were damaged, including from the first quarter of 1969 (Jan. 1 to March 31) and the third quarter of 1972 (July 1 to Sept. 30). President Bush's payroll records for these two quarters were among the records destroyed. Searches for backup paper copies of the missing records were unsuccessful." Mr. Talbott's office would not respond to questions, saying that further information could be provided only through another Freedom of Information application. But Bryan Hubbard, a spokesman for Defense finance agency in Denver, said the destruction occurred as the office was trying to unspool 2,000-foot rolls of fragile microfilm. Mr. Hubbard said he did not know how many records were lost or why the loss had not been announced before. For Mr. Bush, the 1969 period when he was training to be a pilot, is not in dispute. But in May 1972, he moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign and, he has said, to perform his Guard service there for a year. But other Guard officers have said they had no recollection of ever seeing him there. The most evidence the White House has been able to find are records showing Mr. Bush was paid for six days in October and November 1972, without saying where, and the record of a dental exam at a Montgomery, Ala., air base on Jan. 6, 1973. On June 22, The Associated Press filed suit in federal court in New York against the Pentagon and the Air Force to gain access to all the president's military records. The lost payroll records stored in Denver might have answered some questions about whether he fulfilled his legal commitment, critics who have written about the subject said in interviews. "Those are records we've all been interested in," said James Moore, author of a recent book, "Bush's War for Re-election," which takes a critical view of Mr. Bush's service record. "I think it's curious that the microfiche could resolve what days Mr. Bush worked and what days he was paid, and suddenly that is gone." But Mr. Moore said the president could still authorize the release of other withheld records that would shed light on his service record. Among the issues still disputed is why, according to released records, Mr. Bush was suspended from flying on Aug. 1, 1972. The reason cited in the records is "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Mr. Bartlett, the White House spokesman, said in February that Mr. Bush felt he did not need to take the physical as he was no longer flying planes in Alabama. Mr. Lloyd, the retired colonel who studied the records, gave a similar explanation in an interview. But Mr. Lloyd said he was surprised to be told of the destruction of the pay records that might have resolved some questions. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/09/po...09records.html |
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