High Performance Single Engine Choices

Last week, while flying into Carlsbad, california, they gave me 20 miles to descend and make the
airport. I was on an IFR flight plan at 14,000 ft, at 19 miles out I intercepted the ILS. I am glad the
weather was VFR because I didn't make it. I had to cancel and ask for a 360 about 3 miles from the
airport.
Man my ears hurt after that...first times they have ever hurt like that.

If I had dropped my gear and slowed down when I was at 19 miles out I am sure I could have made it, but
with a GS of 175-180 kts it wasn't happening.

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 8 Dec 2003 14:07:08 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable. There were a
few incidents where AVEMCO would not insure a FEW hi performance
experimentals, but then EAA cut its ties with AVEMCO and
the new EAA insurer is now Falcon Insurance.
If you are interested, there are more details at
http://www.eaa.org/communications/ea...insurance.html

However, what may be true is that the hull insurance on a few
hi perf. experimentals may be beyond budget for SOME owners.

I'm not sure what it is now, but the first year on at G-III (Glasair
III) was nearly $6,000 although when you consider a well equipped one
is worth close to $250,000 that ain't all that bad.

They are hot and landing one is more like landing a twin, but other
than that they are like flying most other planes..except things happen
a lot faster and you have to plan farther ahead.

With the Deb at 7,000 I have to start down nearly 40 miles out to make
the approach to 3BS. With the G-III It'd be more like 60 miles out.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

And if somebody is interested in a particular experimental,
they can contact the KIT Mfg. and ask them.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:EN0Bb.269559$Dw6.916917@attbi_s02...
If you will consider experimentals, the Lancair IV-P is the king.
4-seats, 330mph TAS, pressurized. Price tag is $350-500k depending on
options.

Don't forget that most experimentals -- especially in this category -- are
completely uninsurable. You might get liability coverage, but nothing more.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:01:25 -0800, Jeff wrote:

Last week, while flying into Carlsbad, california, they gave me 20 miles to descend and make the
airport. I was on an IFR flight plan at 14,000 ft, at 19 miles out I intercepted the ILS. I am glad the
weather was VFR because I didn't make it. I had to cancel and ask for a 360 about 3 miles from the
airport.
Man my ears hurt after that...first times they have ever hurt like that.

If I know the terrain will permit it, I let ATC know when I need to
start down, or I will require vectors to get down. Unless there is an
over riding reason they'd much rather have me start down earlier
rather than having to vector me around to lose altitude.

Of course the other possible option is to slow down to get a steeper
descent profile.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers
snip

On 8 Dec 2003 06:16:34 -0800, (Nathan Young)
wrote:

Fastest production is probably the Mooney 252 series (now called
TLS/Bravo). These will do 220 KTAS. For new planes, the pricetag is
similar to the Lancair, although an older 252 would be $150k+.

Just a small nit. The Mooney 252 and the TLS/Bravo are different
airplanes, although both are turbocharged.

They have different airframes, type certificates, model numbers, etc.

If memory serves, the TLS/Bravo is an M20M, and the 252 is an M20K.

(The M20 series includes, I believe, just about every airplane that Mooney
produced except, perhaps, for the Mooney Mite).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I was quoted less than $6,000 for the G-III about a year ago although
it may be higher now.

Our friends who bought our Warrior inquired about purchasing a Lancair kit
at OSH '03. When the salesman found out they were 500-hour, VFR pilots, he
didn't want to even discuss insurance.

We have a friend who is finally (after 10 years!) finishing his GlasAir.
It's retractable, with a 300 HP O-540, with a $60K panel -- and completely
uninsurable. Even with his university payscale, he admits there is no way
in the world he could afford to fully insure it.

I've got a $100K plane, and pay less than $1300 per year for full coverage
on two pilots. To me, it just doesn't make any sense to buy a $250 K
airplane, (as in the case of a Cirrus) and then pay $15K per year to insure
it. You're getting just 2.5 times more value (less, really, considering
depreciation), and paying more then TEN times more annually to insure it?

That's nuts.

Worse, it eliminates many people who, like my friends, could afford the
$1000-per-month payments on a Cirrus (spread over 20 years), but could not
swing the extra $1250 per month to insure it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:27:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of
is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the
Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change
the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...

When you consider that the Glasair is a *retractible* and if it is worth
$250K then $7000 doesn't seem too far out of line.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:V5lBb.481595$Tr4.1326775@attbi_s03...
I was quoted less than $6,000 for the G-III about a year ago although
it may be higher now.

Our friends who bought our Warrior inquired about purchasing a Lancair kit
at OSH '03. When the salesman found out they were 500-hour, VFR pilots,
he
didn't want to even discuss insurance.

We have a friend who is finally (after 10 years!) finishing his GlasAir.
It's retractable, with a 300 HP O-540, with a $60K panel -- and completely
uninsurable. Even with his university payscale, he admits there is no way
in the world he could afford to fully insure it.

I've got a $100K plane, and pay less than $1300 per year for full coverage
on two pilots. To me, it just doesn't make any sense to buy a $250 K
airplane, (as in the case of a Cirrus) and then pay $15K per year to
insure
it. You're getting just 2.5 times more value (less, really, considering
depreciation), and paying more then TEN times more annually to insure it?

That's nuts.

Worse, it eliminates many people who, like my friends, could afford the
$1000-per-month payments on a Cirrus (spread over 20 years), but could not
swing the extra $1250 per month to insure it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:27:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of
is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the
Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change
the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the
fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...

Jay Honeck wrote:

They ALL try to gloss over the fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.

I spoke to my insurance broker about insurance on a Velocity. He gave a figure
of "about $2,000".

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

I spoke to my insurance broker about insurance on a Velocity. He gave a
figure
of "about $2,000".

For full coverage? No way.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Suggest you request ATC "a descent in the hold because we are above
our descent profile".

Jeff wrote in message ...
Last week, while flying into Carlsbad, california, they gave me 20 miles to descend and make the
airport. I was on an IFR flight plan at 14,000 ft, at 19 miles out I intercepted the ILS. I am glad the
weather was VFR because I didn't make it. I had to cancel and ask for a 360 about 3 miles from the
airport.
Man my ears hurt after that...first times they have ever hurt like that.

If I had dropped my gear and slowed down when I was at 19 miles out I am sure I could have made it, but
with a GS of 175-180 kts it wasn't happening.

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 8 Dec 2003 14:07:08 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable. There were a
few incidents where AVEMCO would not insure a FEW hi performance
experimentals, but then EAA cut its ties with AVEMCO and
the new EAA insurer is now Falcon Insurance.
If you are interested, there are more details at
http://www.eaa.org/communications/ea...insurance.html

However, what may be true is that the hull insurance on a few
hi perf. experimentals may be beyond budget for SOME owners.

I'm not sure what it is now, but the first year on at G-III (Glasair
III) was nearly $6,000 although when you consider a well equipped one
is worth close to $250,000 that ain't all that bad.

They are hot and landing one is more like landing a twin, but other
than that they are like flying most other planes..except things happen
a lot faster and you have to plan farther ahead.

With the Deb at 7,000 I have to start down nearly 40 miles out to make
the approach to 3BS. With the G-III It'd be more like 60 miles out.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

And if somebody is interested in a particular experimental,
they can contact the KIT Mfg. and ask them.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:EN0Bb.269559$Dw6.916917@attbi_s02...
If you will consider experimentals, the Lancair IV-P is the king.
4-seats, 330mph TAS, pressurized. Price tag is $350-500k depending on
options.

Don't forget that most experimentals -- especially in this category -- are
completely uninsurable. You might get liability coverage, but nothing more.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I was always under the impression that hull insurance ran about 1 1/2 - 2% of
a/c value. My SR20 is insured for $250K at about $4100. The liability portion
is roughly another $600.
I think the $15K you refer to is for the SR22 w/ a hull value of $350K with
low time, non instrument rated pilots/students. The rate drops sharply with the
rating and time in type. That is based on numerous posts on the public & member
forums of www.cirruspilots.org

John
SR20

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:04:12 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

When you consider that the Glasair is a *retractible* and if it is worth
$250K then $7000 doesn't seem too far out of line.

Not at all.

As a quick check, the G-III kit is basically $61,000 with the fast
build options. The engine, at a discount, is about $46,000, the prop
is going to run maybe $10,000 (give or take a tad) for $117,000 and
all we have are a pile of parts with an engine and prop. Figure at
least another $40,000 for a full IFR panel and that is being frugal.
I'd figure at least $60,000 in the panel for a total of $177,000 and
you still have a pile of parts and probably 4000 hours of effort to
make an airplane out of them.

Sure the frugally minded can find the engine, prop, and panel parts
used for a lot less and figure their time as nothing, but the
insurance company doesn't see it that way.


Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:V5lBb.481595$Tr4.1326775@attbi_s03...
I was quoted less than $6,000 for the G-III about a year ago although
it may be higher now.

Our friends who bought our Warrior inquired about purchasing a Lancair kit
at OSH '03. When the salesman found out they were 500-hour, VFR pilots,

What would he have done had they been talking about an A36 Bonanza, or
a Baron?
My first insurance break came at 600 hours, then for the hours flown
in make and model, then per year, and finally a paltry 5% discount for
the instrument rating.

In the one case you have two low time pilots with no high performance
or retract time, looking at flying something that has the equivalent
to the flying characteristics of a P-51 and some complex systems
(assuming you are talking about the IV-P). I've seen IV-Ps listed at
half a million. I have no idea if they sold at that, but as it'd be
difficult to complete a well equipped one for under $250,000 they
probably did.

The 320, 360 and Legacy are different birds, but still a really big
transition for a pilot who has 300 to 500 hours flying fixed gear, non
complex aircraft. The Legacy is a bit larger with a lot more HP, but
"in my opinion" better behaved than the 320 and 360.

In the case of the friend building the G-III, it depends on his
experience.

he
didn't want to even discuss insurance.

We have a friend who is finally (after 10 years!) finishing his GlasAir.
It's retractable, with a 300 HP O-540, with a $60K panel -- and completely
uninsurable. Even with his university payscale, he admits there is no way
in the world he could afford to fully insure it.

I was under the impression that universities didn't pay all that well
compared to industry.

If he has less than a 1000 hours with plenty of high
performance/complex/retract time he should be able to find comparable
insurance for a quarter million dollar airplane.


I've got a $100K plane, and pay less than $1300 per year for full coverage
on two pilots. To me, it just doesn't make any sense to buy a $250 K
airplane, (as in the case of a Cirrus) and then pay $15K per year to
insure

That's over twice what I was quoted a year ago for the G-III, but I'm
not low time with no high performance/complex/retract time. OTOH I
don't figure 1300 hours is high time either...nor did they when I
looked at insuring a TBM-700. The rates weren't bad for a plane of
that price range (I won't use the "M" word.) at $25,000 per year, but
I would have had to put in the equivalent of 200 hours dual. IE, the
first 200 hours required a CFII copilot and specific make and model
training for both of us(believe it was twice the first year and yearly
there after)

it. You're getting just 2.5 times more value (less, really, considering
depreciation), and paying more then TEN times more annually to insure it?

Much of that cost depends on how much *faster* you will be flying. It
also depends in the case of the Cirrus of some very costly repairs and
new complex systems (glass cockpit). If you pop that chute it will be
extremely expensive. It gets very, very expensive to be safer. Plus
the plane is of a new type construction and is only developing a
history and that makes it an unknown. With unknowns the industry is
going to err on the safe side (for them). If many of those chutes get
popped the rates will most likely go up even more.



That's nuts.

Worse, it eliminates many people who, like my friends, could afford the
$1000-per-month payments on a Cirrus (spread over 20 years), but could not
swing the extra $1250 per month to insure it.

The plane has the potential for some very expensive repairs.
How about the new Lancair production aircraft? How do the rates run on
those? They are fast, glass, and a new technology, but with fixed
gear and no chute to tear them apart.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 23:27:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

On the contrary, MOST experimentals ARE insurable.

Well, in the same sense that Betty Grable's legs were "insurable".

The only experimental aircraft with affordable insurance that I know of
is
the RV line. I've talked to the Glasair and Lancair people (and the
Cirrus
people, in the certificated category), and they all just try to change
the
subject when you bring up insurance. They ALL try to gloss over the
fact
that you will be paying upwards of $15K per YEAR for full coverage.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I'm sorry, but in my world, that's "uninsurable"...